View source for Talk:Pseudo-Hans Döbringer

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== Transcription Notes ==

{{#lsth:Index talk:Pol Hausbuch (MS 3227a) | Transcription Notes (13v-65r, 74r-89r)}}

== Translation Notes (Michael Chidester) ==

== Translation Notes (Thomas Stoeppler) ==

This is the complete english translation of the treatise. It was quite a bit of work, however it does still require some editing; after all, engish is just my secondary language. Please also consider that this translation is not literal, there may stylistic elements that cannot be transferred to the english language. Apart from this, I consider the following text to be quite accurate, to the best of my knowledge and understanding.

:~ Thomas Stoeppler, March 2006

I translated the german ms3227a based on several transcriptions available in 2005 and nowadays there are a few things I would read slightly differently. There are, however, no major issues and should not cause problems when working with the source. Since I have not updated (you may or may not forgive me..) the text, should you find any critical issues feel free to contact me (Forum ID is ''T. Stoeppler'' on the SFI / [http://www.swordforum.com/ www.swordforum.com])

:~ Thomas Stoeppler, March 2013

<h3>Translation reference</h3>

<div style="float:left; margin:1em;">
;Attacks / Geferte
:Zornhau – wrath strike 
:Krumphau – bent strike
:Zwerchhau – transverse strike
:Schielhau – squintng strike
:Scheitelhau – vertex strike
:Oberhau - downstrike
:Unterhau -upstrike
:Oberstich - downthrust
:Unterstich - upthrust
:Vorschlag – first strike
:Nachschlag –follow up strike
:Oberschnitt – high cut
:Underschnitt -undercut
:Alter Schnitt –cut the hands and then the throat
</div>
<div style="float:left; margin:1em;">
;Stück / Set techniques
:Huten/Leger  - Guards
:Ochs  - Ox
:Pflug  - Plow
:Alber – Fool (provocation guard)
:Vom Tag – high guard (pausing guard)
:Versetzen – parrying, displacing
:Nachreissen - adhering
:Absetzen – setting aside
:Ansetzen – placing the point
:Abwenden – turning aside
:Überlaufen - overreaching
:Durchlaufen – running through
:Abschneiden – cutting off
:Hängen - hanging
:Winden - winding
</div>
<div style="float:left; margin:1em;">
;Principles 
:Vor - Before
:Nach - After
:Indes – In the moment
:Schwach / weich weak / soft
:Stark / hart /strong / hard
:(frequens) motus (constant) motion
:Anhebung (principium) begin
:Endung (finis) ending
:Zu hand fahren – moving in (in a slightly flanking manner)
</div>
<div style="float:left; margin:1em;">
;General
:Schützen – protecting
:Schiessen – shooting the point
:Dar bringen – to execute
:Bawer, Büffel – peasant, unskilled fencer
:Beschämen – to shame
:Schaden -  damage, injury
:Enden – lethally finishing the combat
:Schantze – place of combat
:Leichmeister – false master, Mc Dojo master
</div>

== Translation Notes (David Lindholm) ==

<h3>{{red|Hanko Döbringer's Fechtbuch from 1389}}</h3>

Presented here is a transcription and modern English translation of the earliest extant manuscript dealing with the longsword yet discovered; Cod.HS.3227a, so named, "Hanko Döbringer's Fechtbuch," from 1389. Written in Germany it is the earliest known exposition of the "Lichtenauer tradition," and a very important document for the field of historical fencing studies.

The translation has been done using B. Henning's, ''Kleines Mittenhochdeutsches Wörterbuch'', working from a microfiche of the original document that I obtained from the ''Germanisches Nationalmuseum'' in Nurnberg, and relying on several dictionaries from the close of the 19th century…

This translation is not intended to be the final word on the work, but to be more of a usable draft for use of students who may have greater or lesser difficulty in working with the original text. As such this is not a literal translation, but a modernized text interpreted by myself. I have tried to make sure that the instructions and meaning of the original have not been changed, only made more readable. I have also chosen to use “You” in the text as much as possible in order to make it clear who is doing what. At a later date I will add illustrations of some techniques and concepts as well as a list of technical terminology with some references.

This work is intended for public use, so feel free to print it, reference it, or quote it, but please do not use it for any commercial purposes. As always I am grateful for suggestions on how to improve the translation and transcription in the future.

I would like to thank Anders Linnard, [[Jeffrey Hull]], Stewart Feil and John Clements for their help in commenting and correcting this translation and transcription. Aside from these gentlemen I have had the help and suggestions from many others over the web. None mentioned and none forgotten. Thanks to Peter Svärd for creating a PDF and producing the layout. All faults, mistakes and erroneous ideas are my own.

David Lindholm<br/>ARMA Senior Researcher<br/>Malmo, Sweden<br/>April 2005

<h3>{{red|Translation Update: ''Mosse'' a Mistake?}}</h3>

In my translation and transcription of Döbringer's ''Fechtbuch'' I translated ''Mosse'' as "reach" with the meaning of being able to reach the opponent. To do that you have to have the proper distance, that was my intention. But after reading and thinking a bit more I would like to offer a different understanding, namely that ''Mosse'' is the same as ''measure'', ''Misura'', etc., meaning the distance between you and the partner. The term in Japanese martial arts is ''maai''. This is the effective combat distance and I believe now the same translated idea works better with Döbringer's text. [[Capo Ferro]] uses the term ''Misura'' in that sense and so do other of the Italian masters such as [[Fiore dei Liberi]]. The term ''Mosse'' in its various forms does seem to me to reflect the concept of the place where you must be in order to offend or defend in a winning manner. That is also why Döbringer says that you should take rather two smaller steps than one large since the latter makes it more difficult for you to place yourself at the correct distance.

Döbringer says that all art has "''Lange und masse''" and I would now take that to mean that all arts, at least of the sword, have length in the sense of reach by a weapon and placement in the fight that is ''Masse''. So we must place ourselves at the correct place in order for us to be able to use the length that our body and weapon gives us. Take away one of these two pillars and the art crumbles to nothing. It is a very clever statement by Döbringer, since in it he manages to convey the complete aspect that these two cornerstones are that upon which everything else rests, and we can also take it to mean at least by implication that this differs from person to person. That is why he does not give advice in feet or angles; we are all of different stature and prefer different weapons. What he does say is that you cannot ignore the fact that the distance and length (or reach of your weapon) matters. So if he intended distance how does he measure it? I think that he does so from his sword point to the body of the opponent. The reason is simply that he does not in the manuscript refer to the idea of thinking in terms of body to body. But he does several times indicate that the point is important. For example that the point should go straight to the opponent as if a string was attached to it, that the point should be no more then 40-50 cm from the opponent when weapons are crossed. It is natural to measure from the point that is likely to reach the opponent first and that will threaten him first. I would here also like to point out that this is also how Capo Ferro measures the ''Misura'', from the point to the opponent's body.

And this makes good sense, especially when we consider the ''Langort'', ''Hengen'', ''Winden'', etc., the Longsword seems to have been a weapon that utilized a great amount of thrusting and threatening with the point. Naturally the body matters as well; I do not think that Döbringer was so narrow-minded that he did not consider the fact that we may place the sword in such a way that the point is very far away and thus of little use in determining the ''Mosse''. But if we take this idea and the fact that he says that we should close with the opponent from the side and not head on, and those two smaller steps are better than one large one, well then we begin to discern a pattern. This also makes sense when Döbringer says that we should close with the opponent with an idea or intention ready in our minds about what to do, we will then be able to determine what the correct "''Lange und masse''" would be in that situation. Remember that Döbringer advises us to use as few techniques or attacks as possible; you are not a better swordsman just because you use flashy techniques. In his mind you are a good swordsman if you win.

''David Lindholm''