You are not currently logged in. Are you accessing the unsecure (http) portal? Click here to switch to the secure portal.
Wiktenauer logo.png

User:Kendra Brown/Latin Lew/96v

From Wiktenauer
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Munich 96v / PDF page 38

Page scan

Absent Zettel from Dresden 110r-110v (PDF pages 57-58)

Page scan
Page scan

German

Von dem Sprechfenster

  1. Sprachfenster mach
  2. stannd frolich besich sein sach
  3. wer sich vor dir zeuchet ab
  4. schlag In schnell das er schnab
  5. Ich sage furwar
  6. kain man schutzet sich on far •
  7. hastu vernommen
  8. zu schlag mag er klain komen

English (Fritz)

About the Sprechfenster

  1. Do the Sprechfenster.
  2. Stand unconcerned and watch what he is up to.
  3. If someone wants to withdraw,
  4. hit him swiftly, so that he will give up.
  5. I'll tell you indeed:
  6. Nobody will be able to protect himself without danger.
  7. If you have understood this,
  8. he will hardly come to strikes.

Notes on German and Zettel

  • Fritz adds extra words (will be able to)
  • Rebecca's version: no one protects themself without risk/danger
  • "No one protects themself without danger" is interestingly potentially ambiguous in english, with one reading more like "danger as in risk" and one more like "danger as in threat"
  • Is it in German? Not evenly-- the "no protection unless threatened" reading is not obvious, only findable if you're meditating on different meanings
  • on far/ohne gefar can also be read as "safely"
  • schap/schnab is often "open and close quickly like a clam" but it's also what birds do to pick up and eat seeds, or snapping one's head backwards or forwards, or the thing that happens to your breath when you get gut-punched
  • the lines with furwar and vernommen are padding to fill out the meter and rhyme
    Take the stance, remain cool and observe him,
    hit him [fast] so he jerks his head back
    if he wants to withdraw, he can’t protect himself without risk
    So he won’t really be able to hit you
    if you have done this correctly
  • Illustrations of this technique

96v a

96v a Latin

  1. DE FENESTRA PATULA
  2. SUPRA commemoratum est,
  3. qua ratione in quatuor praedictas custodias ense regendo Athleticé te componere necesse sit.
  4. Nunc igitur intelligas eum habitum,
  5. quo de agimus,
  6. esse custodiam,
  7. qua tutißime consistere poteris,
  8. custodia autem ipsus mucro est,
  9. de acie longa,
  10. hic enim optima ensis pars est,
  11. et nobilissima :
  12. si qui igitur ex eo Athleticam rite exerceant,
  13. eò[^1] compellunt adversarios,
  14. ut etiam inuîti[^2] vulnerentur.


96v a English

  1. REGARDING THE WIDE-OPEN WINDOW
  2. It was called to mind[^3] above,
  3. a method by which it is essential to compose yourself athletically, the sword having been directed in the four aforesaid guards.
  4. Now therefore you would understand that posture,
  5. from which we start/originate,
  6. to be the guard,
  7. in which you can most safely stand,
  8. moreover the guard itself is the point[^4],
  9. of the long edge,
  10. here namely is the best part of the sword,
  11. and the noblest:
  12. if any therefore practice properly out of the same Athletics[^5],
  13. consequently they round up the adversaries,
  14. in order that the reluctant will be wounded.

96v a smoother English

  • REGARDING THE WIDE-OPEN WINDOW
  • As noted above, it's important to compose yourself athletically in this way, once you have held the sword in the four previously mentioned guards.
  • You should understand that the posture where we begin is the safest guard to stand in, and also this guard is the point of the long edge, specifically the best and noblest part of the sword.
  • if anyone practices these Athletics properly, they will round up their adversaries in order to wound the reluctant ones.

96v a notes

  • [^1]: one of those times the adverb accent helped!
  • [^2]: most of the Us on this page don't have the U mark seen here. did they realize these minims were hard to read, and actually help?! it looks like a circumflex was added later (slightly different ink). That said, the very next word starts "vu" with no differentiating.
  • [^3]: we haven't been perfectly consistent about commemoratus, which we maybe should go back and fix. "called to mind" and "kept in mind" were most common.
  • [^4]: DMLBS gives no indication that "point" has an "essential part, whole reason" meaning
  • [^5]: = sport, not players
  • Architectural senses of ‘sprachfenster’ are about a restricted opportunity for communication through a substantial, separating wall. Note the distinction in vowels
  • "Patula" is "wide-open" in the sense of spreading, maybe like flung-open shutters. DMLBS offers more senses about openness, expansiveness, and clarity. https://logeion.uchicago.edu/patulus
  • Rebecca has written to a friend nun expert to see if we can chase down the Latin term for an anchoress's window.
    • Result: no, they called it window/fenestra.
  • Grimm differentiates [sprachfenster](http://woerterbuchnetz.de/cgi-bin/WBNetz/displayLinkInfo.tcl?sigle=DWB&formid=GS36375) (eg for nuns/cloisters, fenestra locutoria; no alternate senses) and [sprechfenster](http://woerterbuchnetz.de/cgi-bin/WBNetz/displayLinkInfo.tcl?sigle=DWB&formid=GS36787) (no latin; sprekevenster as low german variant of sprachfenster, the thing in a monastery) or also sword fighting (modus quis pugnandi gladio).
    • Grimm's source is [Scherz-Oberlin (1781)](https://archive.org/details/johannisgeorgiis00sche/page/n797/mode/2up) which quotes a long passage from a lost Falckner MS
    • this dichotomy suggests a possible alternate german root meaning something like "wide": sprei/spreiden = spray, spread, scatter
    • sprehe = starling
    • "sprech" is about speech
    • spreihen/spreiz is as close as I can get
    • ‘sprech’ can come from sprejen, spraen,
    • Lexer: spreihen to spray, spritz, scatter. the point from which all of this happens. The point of origin that leads to widespread scattering.
  • Grimm distinguishes between Sprachfenster and Sprechfenster. The former is only used in monastic situations. The latter is both potentially middle dutch (with one citation), or the fencing term.
  • could the sprechfenster be the window through which things are spread/cast/sprayed?
  • in this illustration, if the arms are tucked in, you could wind up for a lot of spraying the sword at your opponent's head
  • Latin indes as the alien chest-burster
  • Fiore's fenestra (is basically Liechtenauer's Ox): https://wiktenauer.com/images/1/18/Pisani-Dossi_MS_18a-c.png
  • Sprechfenster is a variant on longpoint; Joachim Meyer later adds gerade versatzung and eisenport


96v b

96v b Latin

  1. Fenestram autem patulam hoc modo formabis.
  2. Si in conspectum adversarij ense rite[^6] gubernando processeris,
  3. exercens ictum quemcunque,
  4. sive supero sive infero,
  5. tum subinde mucronem longum brachijs porrectis pariter ex ictu,
  6. inijcias contra hostis faciem vel pectus,
  7. atque ea conditione eum urgebis ad se defendendum,
  8. vel ut ensem tuum in primo congreßu feriat,
  9. id igitur si fecerit,
  10. acies ensis tui longa acriter eius ense inhaereat ;
  11. atque interim animo forti et indefesso diligenter perspicias,
  12. quos habitus adversarius exercere velit,
  13. si ab ense tuo receßerit hostis,
  14. tu mucrone subsequutus,
  15. visum vel pectus eius adpetito.
  16. Sin vero ex primi congreßus coruscatione alterum latus tuum ferire conetur,
  17. rursus firmiter brachia adversarij proscindas,
  18. atque contra eius caput naviter laborato.
  19. Verum si adversarius neque ab ense tuo recedere,
  20. neque latus alterum ferire voluerit,
  21. tum utitor duplationibus vel alijs quibusuis habitibus iuxta quod sentias eum fortiter vel infirmiter tenere ensem.


96v b English

  1. On the other hand, you will form the wide open window in this way.
  2. If, in view of the adversary, you moved forward, the sword being properly directed,
  3. employing whatever stroke,
  4. whether from above or from below,
  5. then immediately after the long point, the lower arm having been extended equally from the strike,
  6. you strike against the face or the chest of the enemy,
  7. and you press him hard in the attack with this condition up to having defended himself,
  8. or he will strike your sword in the first approach,
  9. therefore, if he would do this,
  10. the long edge of your sword would stick fiercely to his sword ;[^7]
  11. and in the meantime, you would diligently observe with the strong and unwearied mind,
  12. what gesture the adversary wants to practice,
  13. if the enemy withdraws from your sword,
  14. with your sword following,
  15. seek his face or chest.
  16. But if in truth he attempts to strike your other side from the first flashing approach,
  17. you would strongly cut the arm of the adversary in turn,
  18. and work diligently against his head.
  19. Truly if the adversary neither withdraws from your sword,
  20. nor does he want to strike the other side,
  21. then use doubling or another from whatever gesture close to[^8] that which you perceive/feel him to hold his sword strongly or weakly.


As an alternative, form the wide open window this way: If you moved forward into the enemy’s view, properly directing your sword in any strike, either from above or below, and [finishing] in long point from this strike [the preceding movement ‘any strike’] with the arms equally extended, you would immediately after strike at/against the face or breast of the enemy and in this condition, press HIM hard in the attack [so that] he will have defended himself, or, if he were to hit your sword in the first approach therefore, if he were to do IT, [then] the long edge of your sword would stick fiercely to his sword and and in the meantime, you would diligently observe with the strong and unwearied mind, which gesture the adversary wants to practice: If the enemy were to withdraw from your sword, YOU following with the sword, seek his face or breast If, on the contrary, he truly attempts to hit your other side [second of two] from the first flashing approach, then strongly cut the adversary’s arm and work diligently against his head. Indeed, if the adversary neither withdraws from your sword nor strikes the other side, then use doublings or another [strike] from whichever gesture is like that which you perceive him to hold his sword strongly or weakly.


96v b notes

  • [^6]: duly, solemnly, according to religious usage...
  • several parallel constructions, looks like mostly pairs of targets plus two possible finishing moves and "weakly or strongly."
  • [^7]: the german has "remain strongly in the bind"
  • [^8]: the german has "according to" which fits better here. dictionaries don't really support that reading of iuxta-- closest is in consequence of, in proportion to. However, Hagedorn also struggled with making this part Englishy. juxta also has a meaning of "on par with, equal to, like"

Missing German bit from Dresden 110v-111r (PDF 58-59)

Page scan
Page scan

German

Item so soltu die sprechfennster / das sennd zwu hut auss Dem Lang= en Ort • eine am schwert • vnnd die anndern vor dem Mann • ee wann du Im ann seinn Schwert pindest • oder die schwert • zusamen glitzen • vnd ist doch Inn Im selber nit mer dann ain hut •

English (Fritz)

Item. Thus you shall [make] the Sprechfenster. It consists of two guards with the long point, one at the sword and the other one in front of the man before you bind at his sword or before the swords glisten together; and yet it is by itself nothing more than a guard.

notes

The Latin doesn't have this bit, even though it's not verse. Did the Latin translator think it was redundant? Why else would it get skipped? Is it saying that Sprechfenster and Longpoint are the same? (Does that make it sound more redundant?)

96v c

96v c Latin

  1. Mucro longus longé omnium optimus habitus est,
  2. nanque eo ipso eô adversarius compellitur,
  3. si instes[^9],
  4. ut nec ullos habitus exercere queat,
  5. quocirca in omnibus ictibus eum exerceas contra ipsius faciem vel pectus,
  6. atque inde porrò[^10] varios habitus formes.

96v c English ver 1

  1. the longest long point of all is the best posture,
  2. and in fact the adversary is driven in that direction using the same,
  3. if you threaten,
  4. in order that he were not even able to employ any gestures,
  5. on account of which you should employ it in (regard to) all strikes against his face or chest,
  6. and thence you would form various further/extended postures.

96v c English ver 2

The longest long point is the best posture, and in fact, if you threaten, the adversary is driven in that direction using the same, so that he could not practice any gestures. On account of which, you should practice it regarding all strikes against his face or chest and you would then form various extended postures from this.

96v c English ver 3

The longest long point is the best posture, and in fact, the adversary is driven in that direction if you threaten using the same, so that he could not practice any gestures. On account of which, you should practice it regarding all strikes against his face or chest and you would then form various extended postures from this.

96v c English ver 4

The longest long point is the best posture, and in fact, the adversary is driven in that direction using the same, if you threaten so that he could not practice any gestures. On account of which, you should practice it regarding all strikes against his face or chest and you would then form various extended postures from this.

96v c notes

  • [^9]: "press hard" has more of the sense of weight and trampling that Whitaker suggests, but we already used it for urgeo, so I used "threaten" here.
  • [^10]: i think this is a pun on physical distance versus continuation in time (further/furthermore) using similarity to porrectis (with arms extended)
  • two different targets, parallel in the German

96v d

96v d Latin

  1. Etiam isthuc Fenestra patula adpellatur :
  2. Cum ferme in conspectum adversarij fueris progressus,
  3. sinistrum pedem praeponas,
  4. atque mucronem longum brachijs porrectis contra adversarij faciem vel pectus protendas,
  5. priusquam eius ensem contigeris,
  6. eaque ratione consistas quid ferire,
  7. vel quos habitus contra te sit usurpaturus prospectans.
  8. Cum superné feriat,
  9. tum sublato ense,
  10. eum contra ictum ipsius convertas in Bovis habitum,
  11. et inde visum pungas.
  12. Sin autem ensem tantum ferire studeat corpore neglecto,
  13. audacter transmutato et alterum latus pungito,
  14. Sin autem incurrat elevatis brachijs,
  15. infernam incisionem usurpato,
  16. at si ea demiserit,
  17. luctari poteris,
  18. ea itaque ratione quoscunque habitus per brachia usurpare licebit,
  19. qui tibi optimi videbuntur.


96v d English ver 1

  1. And also the wide-open window is addressed on this point:
  2. When you would be approaching nearly in view of the adversary,
  3. place the left foot in front,
  4. and stretch the long point against the face or chest of the adversary, the arms having been extended,
  5. until you contact his sword,
  6. and you stand to strike anyone using that method,
  7. or look forward at which gesture would have been made use of against you.
  8. When he strikes above,
  9. then the sword having been lifted,
  10. you should turn against his thrust in(to) the Ox posture,
  11. and thence prick the face.
  12. But if, however, he desires to strike only to the sword, the body having been disregarded,
  13. bravely change-about and prick the other side,
  14. but if, however, he runs in (the arms having been raised),
  15. use a low cutting-in,
  16. and if he sends that away,
  17. you can wrestle,
  18. therefore by this method, the gesture permits overthrowing anyone by the arms,
  19. which would seem best to you.

96v d English ver 2

And also the wide open window is addressed thusly:
When you have approached nearly to the face of the adversary, place the left foot forward and extend the arms to stretch the long point against the adversary’s face or chest until you contact his sword, then stop moving in order to strike anyone using this method, or look forward at which gesture he would have used against you.
When he strikes above, then lift your sword and turn into Ox against his thrust, and prick his face.
But if, on the other hand, he desires to strike only the sword, disregarding the body, then bravely change about and prick the other side.
But if, on the other hand, he runs in with raised arms, use a low cutting in, and if he sends that away, you can wrestle. Therefore, by using this method, the gesture permits overthrowing anyone by the arms, whichever would seem best to you.


96v d notes

  • two targets, parallel in the German
Retrieved from "https://wiktenauer.com/index.php?title=User:Kendra_Brown/Latin_Lew/96v&oldid=126635"