Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF

Further Development of the Translation

Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:

• Consider changing "shove" as translated from stos to "thrust" if it seems appropriate in most, if not all, cases.
• Do another pass of the initial sections now that I have a stronger understanding of how Meyer speaks in this section of the text.

Open Questions

There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:

• schlagen vs. streichen: is there a distinction between these words according to Meyer? He uses them seemingly interchangeably, sometimes both within the same sentence.
• stossen vs. drucken vs. dringen vs. fahren: many words that, generally, mean "push". I feel that fahren is distinct, but I wonder at the potential differing connotations of the other words.
• greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

ENHG word	English translation	Notes
Reren	???	Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
sampt	together (with)	cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
Hefft	haft
Sebell	sabre
Ittem	likewise/further	cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stos/Stoß	shove/push	In the context of armoured fencing it may mean "stab".
trit/thritt	step
blöß/blößenn	openings	lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts	towards
dür	you	Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
far	drive	cf. fahren
leger	stance/fencing position	https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
auffaren/far auf	drive up	alt. rise
heb	lift	cf. heben
Bindt	the grip(?)
Bündt	the grip(?)	cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
bandt	[the] bind
vmbschlecht	strike/cut around	cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt	short edge
gefes	grip/handle [of the sword]	cf. Gefäß
kell	throat(?)	cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr	weapon	lit. "defence"
drauen	threaten	cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren	hit/to make contact
Zecken	tacks	cf. Zwecken
schlims	diagonally/slanted
dringen	drive forth	cf. drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
zuthritten/zutretten	approach	cf. "onset"
vhsen/vchsen/vechsen	armpit	cf. achsel. Potentially by achsel he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as vhsen specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
ansezen/ansetzen	attacking / pinning / planting	Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel	throat	cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel	throat, see thrissel	I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich	over yourself / about yourself	Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen	to release	cf. lässt
megest	can/may	cf. mögest
ersehen	to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen	to use, to need	Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch	hasty	cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen	attack, grapple	cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff	grab / catch	cf. greiff
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen	grab / catch	cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
fas	grasp
gezogen	drawn	Past participle of ziehen.
glieder/glider/glüder	penis, or "small body part"	cf. Glied; also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1

Strategy for Discerning Words

Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.

• If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
• If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
• If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.

Searching for Words

I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:

• Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
• Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
• Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
• Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.

Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks

These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.

As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.

• ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
  • This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
• Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
• c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
• p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
  • To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
• Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
• spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
• spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
• kniehel, knichel, kniechell
• schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
  • It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
• v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
• u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
• ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
  • Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)

Fechtkunst Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)