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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF"

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= Armoured Fencing =
 +
 
== Further Development of the Translation ==
 
== Further Development of the Translation ==
  
 
Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
 
Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
−
* Consider changing "shove" as translated from ''stos'' to "thrust" if it seems appropriate in most, if not all, cases.
+
* Check for consistency with the variants of ''greiffen'', "grabbing"
−
* Do another pass of the initial sections now that I have a stronger understanding of how Meyer speaks in this section of the text.
 
  
 
== Open Questions ==
 
== Open Questions ==
 
There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:
 
There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:
  
−
* ''schlagen'' vs. ''streichen'': is there a distinction between these words according to Meyer? He uses them seemingly interchangeably, sometimes both within the same sentence.
 
−
* ''stossen'' vs. ''drucken'' vs. ''dringen'' vs. ''fahren'': many words that, generally, mean "push". I feel that ''fahren'' is distinct, but I wonder at the potential differing connotations of the other words.
 
 
* ''greiffen'' vs. ''ergreiffen'' vs. ''begreiffen'' vs. ''fassen'': ''fassen'' may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
 
* ''greiffen'' vs. ''ergreiffen'' vs. ''begreiffen'' vs. ''fassen'': ''fassen'' may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
 +
* 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt".
 +
** There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the ''Oberhutt'' with ''your grip'' beside your head"?
 +
** The regular ''bindtt''/''binnt''/''binnd''/etc. is also a ''dem'' word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful.
  
−
== Glossary ==
+
= Glossary =
  
 
This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.<br/>
 
This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.<br/>
Line 20: Line 22:
  
 
'''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!'''
 
'''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!'''
 +
== Longsword ==
 +
{| class="wikitable"
 +
|-
 +
! ENHG word !! English translation !! Notes
 +
|-
 +
| fieren/firen/fiert/firt || to conduct/fire ||
 +
|}
 +
 +
== Armoured Fencing ==
  
 
{| class="wikitable"
 
{| class="wikitable"
Line 26: Line 37:
 
|-
 
|-
 
| Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
 
| Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
 +
|-
 +
| brichen/brechen || to break, to wrench'''(?)''' || lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22)
 +
|-
 +
| Annbrich(en) || to break on'''(?)''' ||
 
|-
 
|-
 
| zeich/zeichen || draw || cf. ''zeichnen''.
 
| zeich/zeichen || draw || cf. ''zeichnen''.
Line 31: Line 46:
 
| hawen || to hew, to cut|| A strike with the blade.
 
| hawen || to hew, to cut|| A strike with the blade.
 
|-
 
|-
−
| schlagen || strike || A blunt strike.
+
| schlag || a strike || A blunt strike.
 
|-
 
|-
−
| schlecht || strike || cf. ''schlagen''. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation ([https://www.verbix.com/webverbix/german/schlagen modern ''schlägt''], which is interesting.
+
| schlagen || to strike || A blunt strike.
 
|-
 
|-
−
| streichen || to stroke'''(?)''' || A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as ''schlagen'' but that '''requires confirmation'''.
+
| schlecht || to strike || cf. ''schlagen''. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation ([https://www.verbix.com/webverbix/german/schlagen modern ''schlägt'']), which is interesting.
 +
|-
 +
| streichen || to strike || A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as ''schlagen''; only appears once as a verb.
 +
|-
 +
| streich || a stroke || cf. ''schlag''.
 +
|-
 +
| achsell/ahsell || shoulder ||
 +
|-
 +
| uchsen/vchsen/vhsen || armpit ||
 
|-
 
|-
 
| sampt || together (with) || cf. ''samt''. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's [[Joachim_Meyer#Armored_Fencing|armoured fencing section]]. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
 
| sampt || together (with) || cf. ''samt''. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's [[Joachim_Meyer#Armored_Fencing|armoured fencing section]]. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
 
|-
 
|-
 
| Hefft || haft ||
 
| Hefft || haft ||
 +
|-
 +
| haften || to stick [in place] ||
 
|-
 
|-
 
| Sebell || sabre ||
 
| Sebell || sabre ||
Line 45: Line 70:
 
| Ittem || likewise/further || cf. ''desgleichen'' and ''ferner''; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
 
| Ittem || likewise/further || cf. ''desgleichen'' and ''ferner''; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
 
|-
 
|-
−
| stos/Stoß || shove/push || In the context of armoured fencing it may mean "jab" or "stab".
+
| stossem/Stoßem || to shove/push || In the context of armoured fencing, it may mean "stab" or "jab".
 
|-
 
|-
−
| trit/thritt || step ||
+
| triten/thritten/tretten/thretten || step ||
 
|-
 
|-
 
| blöß/blößenn || openings || lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
 
| blöß/blößenn || openings || lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
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| dür || you || Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
 
| dür || you || Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
 
|-
 
|-
−
| far || drive || cf. ''fahren''
+
| fahren || to drive || cf. ''fahren''
 +
|-
 +
| faren || to drive || cf. ''fahren''
 +
|-
 +
| auffaren/far auf|| to drive up || alt. ''rise''
 +
|-
 +
| dringen/thringen/tringen || to drive [forth] [with the point] || See [[Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng)|here]]; cf. modern ''drängen'' and ''dringen'', in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
 
|-
 
|-
 
| leger || stance/fencing position || https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
 
| leger || stance/fencing position || https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
 
|-
 
|-
−
| auffaren/far auf|| drive up || alt. ''rise''
+
| heben || to lift || cf. ''heben''
−
|-
 
−
| heb || lift || cf. ''heben''
 
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Bindt || the grip'''(?)''' ||
+
| Bindt || the grip ||
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Bündt || the grip'''(?)''' || cf. ''Bund''; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
+
| Bündt || the grip || cf. ''Bund''; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
 
|-
 
|-
 
| bandt || [the] bind ||
 
| bandt || [the] bind ||
 
|-
 
|-
−
| vmbschlecht || strike/cut around || cf. ''umschlagen''
+
| vmbschlecht || to strike/cut around || cf. ''umschlagen''
 
|-
 
|-
 
| halb schneidt || short edge ||
 
| halb schneidt || short edge ||
 
|-
 
|-
−
| gefes || grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß'']
+
| gefes || the grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß'']
 
|-
 
|-
−
| kell || throat'''(?)''' || cf. ''Kehle'', Dutch ''keel''
+
| kell || throat || cf. ''Kehle'', Dutch ''keel''
 
|-
 
|-
 
| Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence"
 
| Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence"
 
|-
 
|-
−
| drauen || threaten || cf. ''drohen''; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
+
| drauen || to threaten || cf. ''drohen''; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
 
|-
 
|-
−
| rieren || hit/to make contact ||
+
| rieren || to hit/to make contact ||
 
|-
 
|-
 
| Zecken || tacks || cf. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zwecke#German ''Zwecken'']
 
| Zecken || tacks || cf. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zwecke#German ''Zwecken'']
 
|-
 
|-
 
| schlims || diagonally/slanted ||  
 
| schlims || diagonally/slanted ||  
−
|-
 
−
| dringen || drive forth || cf. ''drängen'' and ''dringen'', in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
 
 
|-
 
|-
 
| zuthritten/zutretten || approach || cf. "onset"
 
| zuthritten/zutretten || approach || cf. "onset"
−
|-
 
−
| vhsen/vchsen/vechsen || armpit || cf. ''achsel''. Potentially by ''achsel'' he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as ''vhsen'' specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
 
 
|-
 
|-
 
| ansezen/ansetzen || attacking / pinning / planting || Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead<ref name="forgeng">[https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng) ''Fechtkunst'' Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)]</ref>. Worth noting: Meyer uses ''angreiffen'' to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
 
| ansezen/ansetzen || attacking / pinning / planting || Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead<ref name="forgeng">[https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng) ''Fechtkunst'' Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)]</ref>. Worth noting: Meyer uses ''angreiffen'' to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
Line 99: Line 124:
 
| drissel || throat, see ''thrissel'' || I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
 
| drissel || throat, see ''thrissel'' || I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
 
|-
 
|-
−
| übersich || over yourself / about yourself || Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. ''undersich'' (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
+
| übersich || upwards, over yourself/about yourself || Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. ''undersich'' (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
 
|-
 
|-
−
| lest/lesen || to release || cf. ''lässt''
+
| lest/lesen/las/lasen || to release || cf. ''lässt''
 
|-
 
|-
 
| megest || can/may  || cf. ''mögest''
 
| megest || can/may  || cf. ''mögest''
Line 111: Line 136:
 
| goch || hasty || cf. ''gach''; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)  
 
| goch || hasty || cf. ''gach''; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)  
 
|-
 
|-
−
| angreifen  || attack, grapple || cf. ''angreifen''. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
+
| angreifen  || to attack, to grapple || cf. ''angreifen''. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
 
|-
 
|-
−
| greüff || grab / catch || cf. ''greiff''
+
| greüff || to grab / to catch || cf. ''greiff''
 
|-
 
|-
−
| Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen || grab / catch || cf. ''greiff''. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
+
| Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen || to grab / to catch || cf. ''greiff''. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
 
|-
 
|-
−
| fas || grasp ||  
+
| fas || to grasp ||  
 
|-
 
|-
−
| gezogen || drawn || Past participle of ''ziehen''.  
+
| gezogen || drawn || Past participle of ''zeichen''/''ziehen''.  
 
|-
 
|-
−
| glieder/glider/glüder || penis, or "small body part" || cf. ''Glied''; also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1
+
| glieder/glider/glüder || penis, or "small body part" || cf. ''Glied'', also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1
 
|}
 
|}
  

Latest revision as of 15:50, 9 April 2023

Armoured Fencing

Further Development of the Translation

Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:

  • Check for consistency with the variants of greiffen, "grabbing"

Open Questions

There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:

  • greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
  • 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt".
    • There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the Oberhutt with your grip beside your head"?
    • The regular bindtt/binnt/binnd/etc. is also a dem word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful.

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

Longsword

ENHG word English translation Notes
fieren/firen/fiert/firt to conduct/fire

Armoured Fencing

ENHG word English translation Notes
Reren ??? Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
brichen/brechen to break, to wrench(?) lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22)
Annbrich(en) to break on(?)
zeich/zeichen draw cf. zeichnen.
hawen to hew, to cut A strike with the blade.
schlag a strike A blunt strike.
schlagen to strike A blunt strike.
schlecht to strike cf. schlagen. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation (modern schlägt), which is interesting.
streichen to strike A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as schlagen; only appears once as a verb.
streich a stroke cf. schlag.
achsell/ahsell shoulder
uchsen/vchsen/vhsen armpit
sampt together (with) cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
Hefft haft
haften to stick [in place]
Sebell sabre
Ittem likewise/further cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stossem/Stoßem to shove/push In the context of armoured fencing, it may mean "stab" or "jab".
triten/thritten/tretten/thretten step
blöß/blößenn openings lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts towards
dür you Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
fahren to drive cf. fahren
faren to drive cf. fahren
auffaren/far auf to drive up alt. rise
dringen/thringen/tringen to drive [forth] [with the point] See here; cf. modern drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
leger stance/fencing position https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
heben to lift cf. heben
Bindt the grip
Bündt the grip cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
bandt [the] bind
vmbschlecht to strike/cut around cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt short edge
gefes the grip/handle [of the sword] cf. Gefäß
kell throat cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr weapon lit. "defence"
drauen to threaten cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren to hit/to make contact
Zecken tacks cf. Zwecken
schlims diagonally/slanted
zuthritten/zutretten approach cf. "onset"
ansezen/ansetzen attacking / pinning / planting Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel throat cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel throat, see thrissel I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich upwards, over yourself/about yourself Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen/las/lasen to release cf. lässt
megest can/may cf. mögest
ersehen to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen to use, to need Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch hasty cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen to attack, to grapple cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff to grab / to catch cf. greiff
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen to grab / to catch cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
fas to grasp
gezogen drawn Past participle of zeichen/ziehen.
glieder/glider/glüder penis, or "small body part" cf. Glied, also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1

Strategy for Discerning Words

Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.

  • If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
  • If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
  • If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.

Searching for Words

I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:

  • Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
  • Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
  • Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
  • Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.

Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks

These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.

As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.

  • ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
    • This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
  • Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
  • c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
  • p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
    • To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
  • Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
  • spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
  • spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
  • kniehel, knichel, kniechell
  • schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
    • It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
  • v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
  • u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
  • ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
    • Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
  • ↑ Fechtkunst Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)
    • Retrieved from "https://wiktenauer.com/index.php?title=Talk:Joachim_Meyer/Jordan_Elliot_Finch_2023_MAF&oldid=141876"