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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF"
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* ''greiffen'' vs. ''ergreiffen'' vs. ''begreiffen'' vs. ''fassen'': ''fassen'' may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations? | * ''greiffen'' vs. ''ergreiffen'' vs. ''begreiffen'' vs. ''fassen'': ''fassen'' may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations? | ||
* 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt". | * 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt". | ||
+ | ** There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the ''Oberhutt'' with ''your grip'' beside your head"? | ||
+ | ** The regular ''bindtt''/''binnt''/''binnd''/etc. is also a ''dem'' word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful. | ||
= Glossary = | = Glossary = | ||
Line 20: | Line 22: | ||
'''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!''' | '''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!''' | ||
+ | == Longsword == | ||
+ | {| class="wikitable" | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | ! ENHG word !! English translation !! Notes | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | fieren/firen/fiert/firt || to conduct/fire || | ||
+ | |} | ||
== Armoured Fencing == | == Armoured Fencing == | ||
Line 28: | Line 37: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that. | | Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that. | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | brichen/brechen || to break, to wrench'''(?)''' || lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22) | ||
+ | |- | ||
+ | | Annbrich(en) || to break on'''(?)''' || | ||
|- | |- | ||
| zeich/zeichen || draw || cf. ''zeichnen''. | | zeich/zeichen || draw || cf. ''zeichnen''. | ||
Line 39: | Line 52: | ||
| schlecht || to strike || cf. ''schlagen''. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation ([https://www.verbix.com/webverbix/german/schlagen modern ''schlägt'']), which is interesting. | | schlecht || to strike || cf. ''schlagen''. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation ([https://www.verbix.com/webverbix/german/schlagen modern ''schlägt'']), which is interesting. | ||
|- | |- | ||
− | | streichen || to strike | + | | streichen || to strike || A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as ''schlagen''; only appears once as a verb. |
|- | |- | ||
− | | streich || a | + | | streich || a stroke || cf. ''schlag''. |
|- | |- | ||
| achsell/ahsell || shoulder || | | achsell/ahsell || shoulder || | ||
Line 79: | Line 92: | ||
| heben || to lift || cf. ''heben'' | | heben || to lift || cf. ''heben'' | ||
|- | |- | ||
− | | Bindt || the grip | + | | Bindt || the grip || |
|- | |- | ||
− | | Bündt || the grip | + | | Bündt || the grip || cf. ''Bund''; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings |
|- | |- | ||
| bandt || [the] bind || | | bandt || [the] bind || | ||
Line 91: | Line 104: | ||
| gefes || the grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß''] | | gefes || the grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß''] | ||
|- | |- | ||
− | | kell || throat | + | | kell || throat || cf. ''Kehle'', Dutch ''keel'' |
|- | |- | ||
| Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence" | | Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence" |
Latest revision as of 15:50, 9 April 2023
Contents
Armoured Fencing
Further Development of the Translation
Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
- Check for consistency with the variants of greiffen, "grabbing"
Open Questions
There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:
- greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
- 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt".
- There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the Oberhutt with your grip beside your head"?
- The regular bindtt/binnt/binnd/etc. is also a dem word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful.
Glossary
This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.
Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!
Longsword
ENHG word | English translation | Notes |
---|---|---|
fieren/firen/fiert/firt | to conduct/fire |
Armoured Fencing
ENHG word | English translation | Notes |
---|---|---|
Reren | ??? | Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that. |
brichen/brechen | to break, to wrench(?) | lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22) |
Annbrich(en) | to break on(?) | |
zeich/zeichen | draw | cf. zeichnen. |
hawen | to hew, to cut | A strike with the blade. |
schlag | a strike | A blunt strike. |
schlagen | to strike | A blunt strike. |
schlecht | to strike | cf. schlagen. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation (modern schlägt), which is interesting. |
streichen | to strike | A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as schlagen; only appears once as a verb. |
streich | a stroke | cf. schlag. |
achsell/ahsell | shoulder | |
uchsen/vchsen/vhsen | armpit | |
sampt | together (with) | cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section. |
Hefft | haft | |
haften | to stick [in place] | |
Sebell | sabre | |
Ittem | likewise/further | cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points |
stossem/Stoßem | to shove/push | In the context of armoured fencing, it may mean "stab" or "jab". |
triten/thritten/tretten/thretten | step | |
blöß/blößenn | openings | lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]" |
werts | towards | |
dür | you | Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir" |
fahren | to drive | cf. fahren |
faren | to drive | cf. fahren |
auffaren/far auf | to drive up | alt. rise |
dringen/thringen/tringen | to drive [forth] [with the point] | See here; cf. modern drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich". |
leger | stance/fencing position | https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1 |
heben | to lift | cf. heben |
Bindt | the grip | |
Bündt | the grip | cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings |
bandt | [the] bind | |
vmbschlecht | to strike/cut around | cf. umschlagen |
halb schneidt | short edge | |
gefes | the grip/handle [of the sword] | cf. Gefäß |
kell | throat | cf. Kehle, Dutch keel |
Wehr | weapon | lit. "defence" |
drauen | to threaten | cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search= |
rieren | to hit/to make contact | |
Zecken | tacks | cf. Zwecken |
schlims | diagonally/slanted | |
zuthritten/zutretten | approach | cf. "onset" |
ansezen/ansetzen | attacking / pinning / planting | Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?) |
thrissel | throat | cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel. |
drissel | throat, see thrissel | I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment. |
übersich | upwards, over yourself/about yourself | Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”) |
lest/lesen/las/lasen | to release | cf. lässt |
megest | can/may | cf. mögest |
ersehen | to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage] | |
brauchen | to use, to need | Context dependent, especially in this older form |
goch | hasty | cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century) |
angreifen | to attack, to grapple | cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage. |
greüff | to grab / to catch | cf. greiff |
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen | to grab / to catch | cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand". |
fas | to grasp | |
gezogen | drawn | Past participle of zeichen/ziehen. |
glieder/glider/glüder | penis, or "small body part" | cf. Glied, also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1 |
Strategy for Discerning Words
Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.
- If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
- If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
- If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.
Searching for Words
I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:
- Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
- Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
- Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
- Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.
Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks
These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.
As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.
- ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
- This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
- Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
- c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
- p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
- To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
- Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
- spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
- spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
- kniehel, knichel, kniechell
- schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
- It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
- v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
- u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
- ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
- Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
- Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)