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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF"

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(Created page with "<h2> Translation notes </h2> Until told otherwise, I will keep alternate versions of the translation here with refs that include original translations and notes. I feel that...")
 
 
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<h2> Translation notes </h2>
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= Armoured Fencing =
  
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Until told otherwise, I will keep alternate versions of the translation here with refs that include original translations and notes.
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== Further Development of the Translation ==
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I feel that it's important to note original words used, particularly in this section, where some, different words can be translated into the same English word; and where a chosen English
 
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word may be misleading when not considered in the right context.
 
  
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<h3>Version 1 (2023-02-24)</h3>
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Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
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* Check for consistency with the variants of ''greiffen'', "grabbing"
  
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<section begin="104r.1"/>
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== Open Questions ==
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'''Of Battling and Fighting in Armour on Foot, Shortly Described'''
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There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:
  
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Because fighting is of various kinds, thus one can also give no fixed rule, then anyone who has been offered a fight had this advantage: that he can devise what he knows is in his service, be it with rare weapons or along with cunning, nimble advantage. Therefore, the one who is offered the fight gives the weapon and he may choose as he wants.
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* ''greiffen'' vs. ''ergreiffen'' vs. ''begreiffen'' vs. ''fassen'': ''fassen'' may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
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<section end="104r.1"/>
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* 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt".
 +
** There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the ''Oberhutt'' with ''your grip'' beside your head"?
 +
** The regular ''bindtt''/''binnt''/''binnd''/etc. is also a ''dem'' word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful.
  
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<section begin="104r.2"/>
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= Glossary =
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For example, should two fight with each other and the one has a weapon on the left and the other on the right. Now the Right goes to offer the Left. So this lets the Left choose the weapon in this way. Namely, two sharp rapiers and two sharp daggers. After that, two right arm scissors<ref>orig. ''ararmschirleinn''</ref> - namely on the right arm because he is left[-handed] - and a sharp spike pointed inside at the bend of each arm, such that when one bends the same arm a little, he stabs himself.
 
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<section end="104r.2"/>
 
  
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<section begin="104r.3"/>
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This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.<br/>
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If they now come to the agreed place and permit the weapons, so each puts on his right arm rail<ref>orig. ''Armschiene'' - seemingly a part of the armour</ref> on his right arm to which arm they were assigned<ref>orig. ''geordinirtt''</ref>. When they should now step into the fight then they can’t defend the right. As soon as one bends his arm, he will stab himself
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I '''thoroughly welcome''' any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.<br/>
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<section end="104r.3"/>
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I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.<br/>
 +
This is especially true for the '''(?)''' and '''???''' items in the glossary.
  
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<section begin="104v.1"/>
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'''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!'''
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therefore his left arm is open, in which he prepares to use the dagger to stab. However, the Left holds his right arm with the dagger for displacing and defends himself with the left hand. Thus, the Right would be more damaged from him than from the point/front<ref>orig. ''findt''</ref>.
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== Longsword ==
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<section end="104v.1"/>
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{| class="wikitable"
 +
|-
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! ENHG word !! English translation !! Notes
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|-
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| fieren/firen/fiert/firt || to conduct/fire ||
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|}
  
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<section begin="104v.2"/>
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== Armoured Fencing ==
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From this example it is easy to note that the one who has the best advantage is the one who always chooses or gives the weapon.
 
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<section end="104v.2"/>
 
  
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<section begin="104v.3"/>
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{| class="wikitable"
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This, therefore, have I said so that everyone who wants to offer someone else a fight should be mindful of such a trick, and doesn't rashly show himself, but rather offers themselves graciously as such a thing may also happen in a calm manner, for both of them to fight in armour or to fight naked or with drawn weapons. But what concerns the fencing or battling with a bare body and what is advantageous and how they are to be used has been taught up to now in Rapier and other weapons and sufficiently understood now. I want to speak of only the advantage in armoured fighting such as you need it. Note that, generally, three weapons are used in armour: a spear<ref name="spis">orig. ''spis''</ref> and a sword<ref name="schwertt">orig. ''schwertt''</ref> also a dagger<ref name="dolchen">orig. ''dolchen''</ref>, or a dagger and a sabre<ref name="sebell">orig. ''sebell''</ref> belted around and a sword.
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|-
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<section end="104v.3"/>
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! ENHG word !! English translation !! Notes
 +
|-
 +
| Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
 +
|-
 +
| brichen/brechen || to break, to wrench'''(?)''' || lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22)
 +
|-
 +
| Annbrich(en) || to break on'''(?)''' ||
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|-
 +
| zeich/zeichen || draw || cf. ''zeichnen''.
 +
|-
 +
| hawen || to hew, to cut|| A strike with the blade.
 +
|-
 +
| schlag || a strike || A blunt strike.
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|-
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| schlagen || to strike || A blunt strike.
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|-
 +
| schlecht || to strike || cf. ''schlagen''. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation ([https://www.verbix.com/webverbix/german/schlagen modern ''schlägt'']), which is interesting.
 +
|-
 +
| streichen || to strike || A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as ''schlagen''; only appears once as a verb.
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|-
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| streich || a stroke || cf. ''schlag''.
 +
|-
 +
| achsell/ahsell || shoulder ||
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|-
 +
| uchsen/vchsen/vhsen || armpit ||
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|-
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| sampt || together (with) || cf. ''samt''. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's [[Joachim_Meyer#Armored_Fencing|armoured fencing section]]. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
 +
|-
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| Hefft || haft ||
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|-
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| haften || to stick [in place] ||
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|-
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| Sebell || sabre ||
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|-
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| Ittem || likewise/further || cf. ''desgleichen'' and ''ferner''; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
 +
|-
 +
| stossem/Stoßem || to shove/push || In the context of armoured fencing, it may mean "stab" or "jab".
 +
|-
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| triten/thritten/tretten/thretten || step ||
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|-
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| blöß/blößenn || openings || lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
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|-
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| werts  || towards ||
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|-
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| dür || you || Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
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|-
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| fahren || to drive || cf. ''fahren''
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|-
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| faren || to drive || cf. ''fahren''
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|-
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| auffaren/far auf|| to drive up || alt. ''rise''
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|-
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| dringen/thringen/tringen || to drive [forth] [with the point] || See [[Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng)|here]]; cf. modern ''drängen'' and ''dringen'', in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
 +
|-
 +
| leger || stance/fencing position || https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
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|-
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| heben || to lift || cf. ''heben''
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|-
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| Bindt || the grip ||
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|-
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| Bündt || the grip || cf. ''Bund''; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
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|-
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| bandt || [the] bind ||
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|-
 +
| vmbschlecht || to strike/cut around || cf. ''umschlagen''
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|-
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| halb schneidt || short edge ||
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|-
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| gefes || the grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß'']
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|-
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| kell || throat || cf. ''Kehle'', Dutch ''keel''
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|-
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| Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence"
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|-
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| drauen || to threaten || cf. ''drohen''; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
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|-
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| rieren || to hit/to make contact ||
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|-
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| Zecken || tacks || cf. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zwecke#German ''Zwecken'']
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|-
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| schlims || diagonally/slanted ||
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|-
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| zuthritten/zutretten || approach || cf. "onset"
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|-
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| ansezen/ansetzen || attacking / pinning / planting || Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead<ref name="forgeng">[https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng) ''Fechtkunst'' Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)]</ref>. Worth noting: Meyer uses ''angreiffen'' to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
 +
|-
 +
| thrissel || throat || cf. ''drissel''. Seems to have transformed into [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Drossel Drossel], which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly [https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=trissel drüʒʒel].
 +
|-
 +
| drissel || throat, see ''thrissel'' || I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
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|-
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| übersich || upwards, over yourself/about yourself || Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. ''undersich'' (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
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|-
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| lest/lesen/las/lasen || to release || cf. ''lässt''
 +
|-
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| megest || can/may  || cf. ''mögest''
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|-
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| ersehen || to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage] ||
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|-
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| brauchen || to use, to need || Context dependent, especially in this older form
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|-
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| goch || hasty || cf. ''gach''; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
 +
|-
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| angreifen  || to attack, to grapple || cf. ''angreifen''. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
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|-
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| greüff || to grab / to catch || cf. ''greiff''
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|-
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| Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen || to grab / to catch || cf. ''greiff''. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
 +
|-
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| fas || to grasp ||
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|-
 +
| gezogen || drawn || Past participle of ''zeichen''/''ziehen''.  
 +
|-
 +
| glieder/glider/glüder || penis, or "small body part" || cf. ''Glied'', also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1
 +
|}
  
−
<section begin="105r.1"/>
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== Strategy for Discerning Words ==
−
The first order of defence is to fight in armour. Namely, a spear and a sword; and a combat sword<ref name="kempffdegen">orig. ''kempff degen''; it can mean either “combat sword” or “combat dagger” ([https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Degen#German Source 1], [https://fwb-online.de/lemma/degen.h2.0m?q=degen&page=1 Source 2]). See [https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.216135.html here] for a painting with ''kempffdegen'' in its caption</ref> or a dagger, or also a shield so when attacking you used the shield and spear
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Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German.
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<section end="105r.1"/>
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Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings.
 +
Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - '''feel free to contribute to the list'''.
  
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<section begin="105r.2"/>
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* If a vowel cluster is spelled with ''eü'', it most often can also be spelled with ''ei''. Example: ''greüff'' -> ''greiff''.
−
and have worked with the spear. If someone misses the other between the legs and avoided, or have thrusted with the spear and followed after the guard - because thrusting with the spear was in great use in the olden days - afterwards when they thrusted with the spear, they grabbed the sword and further the dagger or combat sword.
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* If a vowel is spelled with ''ü'', it can sometimes be spelled with just ''i''. Example: ''dür'' -> ''dir''.
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<section end="105r.2"/>
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* If a word contains ''mpt'', try replacing it with ''mt''. Example ''sampt'' -> ''samt''.
  
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<section begin="105r.3"/>
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=== Searching for Words ===
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But I want to take the other order for myself to explain, from which one will reasonably<ref>orig. ''zimlich''</ref> learn how it is to fight on foot, and I also want to take three advantageous, artificial weapons for myself: firstly, a sword which above the pommel should have four tacks next to the fifth at the top. It shouldn’t be long, rather short, so that it can cause harm <ref>alt. "endure"</ref> in an emergency. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem">''Ittem'' has many potential meanings: "further", "likewise", "the same as", and also simply as a means of 'bullet-pointing' numerous items. I've found that "likewise" works as an apt translation most of the time, but for clarity I will leave it untranslated. See [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel) this article].</ref> the cross should be like a mason’s hammer, the point and blade angular
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I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:
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<section end="105r.3"/>
 
  
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<section begin="105r.4"/>
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* Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
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and that should all be cast from solid iron and the point should be steeled.
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* Head to [[Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng)|Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary]] and see if the word appears there.
−
<section end="105r.4"/>
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* Head to [https://fwb-online.de/ Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch] and see if the word appears there.
 +
* Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.
  
−
<section begin="105v.1"/>
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== Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks ==
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It should also be made finely supple so that one may fully choose the length. Another idea would please<ref>orig. ''noch eines Idenn woll gefalen''</ref>.
 
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<section end="105v.1"/>
 
  
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<section begin="105v.2"/>
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These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.
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''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> the sabre should be strong. A good edge but not too heavy.
 
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<section end="105v.2"/>
 
  
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<section begin="105v.3"/>
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As always, I '''thoroughly welcome''' any discussion.
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The dagger should be triple, such that three blades are intertwined as if one stuck three larding needles in each other, and the arms/backs<ref>orig. ''Reren''; unclear</ref> close on each other and be bound with springs so that if you push with one, a point would come free [and remain inside]. Then one would need it when one comes between a joint, thus one separates it, which gives a wide gap so when he presses the same first dagger, then the other point is smaller and skinnier, so he stabs the previous hole, which then wants to go deeper than the first so that he notices that he has gone into the body. He releases<ref>orig. ''lest''</ref> the spring and lets him have the sharp point strongly, which he can’t soon pull out. The dagger is used when you have thrown him.
 
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<section begin="105v.3"/>
 
  
−
<section begin="105v.4"/>
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* ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
−
''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> if it pleases, he can want to make the daggers fourfold, but it should be made so that the springs are not noticeable if you bring the weapon in the lists<ref>orig. ''Schranckenn''</ref>. The opponent may not do the same. However, one should make himself used to it, then the one who gives the weapon can practise it at his pleasure and particularly look for an advantage in it which the other cannot soon see or
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** This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
−
<section end="105v.4"/>
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* Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
−
 
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* c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
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<section begin="106r.1"/>
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* p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
−
notice in the lists. And even if the springs in the dagger are already shown, they are still made advantageous to you, that he can’t soon soon grip you. You should first of all pay good attention to whether your opponent wants to nimbly rush over you with strength or wrestle you with force. So you should do gladly that he doesn’t rush over you with a Thunderbolt<ref name="donerschlag">orig. ''donerschlag''</ref>, and let him forward above<ref>orig. ''vnnd las Inn vorver ¬thobenn''; messy ink makes it difficult to transcribe; possible alt. "and read above beforehand"</ref>, and note when he hits you that you displace it between both your hands and see if you can attack.
+
** To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
−
<section end="106r.1"/>
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* Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
−
 
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* spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
−
<section begin="106r.2"/>
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* spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
−
On the other hand, be careful that you are not attacked, but if you are attacked on your left, thusly step with your left back or put your pommel on your breast and reach<ref>orig. ''erlang''</ref> the point, and attack him also, and drive him from you. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> if he fights wide around you, thusly travel after<ref name="nachreissen">see '''nachreissen'''</ref> him with the point to an opening. Note the openings are these, where you should initiate<ref name="stehenn">orig. ''stehenn''; often coupled with ''ansezen'' in this section; alt. "stand against"</ref> or attack: the visor, under the armpit, the knuckles in the hands. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> between the legs, outwards toward the gloves, and where the armour has a joint. Note that you don’t attack to another opening, as you may have a nearer opening. Lastly, loosen your fingers, namely: where someone grabs you see that you can
+
* kniehel, knichel, kniechell
−
<section end="106r.2"/>
+
* schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
−
 
+
** It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
−
<section begin="106v.1"/>
+
* v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
−
free a finger, then break<ref>orig. ''brich''</ref> [their grip] over yourself, ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> break on<ref>orig. ''anbrichen''</ref>, stab their genitals, break their leg or stab their knee. First I want to go through the armour fencing examples wisely, then explain the advantage of the declared weapons. In the approach, take your sword in the Oberhut with both of [your hands] next to your head, and grip your blade with your left hand in the middle, so that the point stands in the man’s face. Step thusly in, so that your left foot stands in front at all times. Don't be too high<ref>orig. ''goch''</ref>, and see if you can reach his frontmost foot, make as if you want to initiate<ref name="stehenn"/>in his face, immediately let go of the haft with your right hand, and come to help with your left hand and hit him with the pommel to the head or to his left arm. If he parries your hit between both his hands, let it drive around your head, and hit him from your right to his knee bone or ankle. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, go in the Oberhut as before, and pay attention to if he wants to attack or initiate<ref name="stehenn"/>. Thusly set off<ref name="absetzen">see '''absetzen'''</ref> in front your left hand. If he then hits you from above, offset the blow between both your hands and stab immediately outside over his arm, and attack the throat<ref>orig. ''drissel''; alt. "attack him thrice"</ref>. As soon as you find
+
* u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
−
<section end="106v.1"/>
+
* ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
−
 
+
** Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
−
<section begin="107r.1"/>
 
−
that your point sticks [in place, in the armour] thus hit [with] your both under your right shoulder and don’t let him get away. Rather, force him to you. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> go into the Oberhut, stab in his visor. If he defends, attack him in his left shoulder<ref name="achsell">orig. ''Achsell'', refers to shoulder/armpit</ref> force him towards you. Pay attention as soon as he wants to free himself that you rush after into his weight with wrestling<ref name="ringen">see '''Ringen'''</ref>, throwing, or thrusting in the front on his visor. Note if you have attacked someone don’t let him come away, then he can’t work<ref name="arbeiten">see '''arbeiten'''</ref>. In the other guard, hold your sword with the grip besides your right hip. Grasp the blade with the left hand in the middle, so that your point stands against the man, the left foot at all times forward. Approach. If he thrusts, displace from the hand. If he strikes, then receive the stroke between both your hands in the blades. Immediately<ref name="inndes">orig. ''inndes''</ref> watch out when he strikes, and step with your right, thus displace as you learnt and drive with the pommel into his knee bend. He will then want to pull his foot, so attack him under his right armpit or wherever you can, and force him from you
 
−
<section end="107r.1"/>
 
−
 
 
−
<section begin="107r.2"/>
 
−
or drive with the pommel on his neck and step with the right behind his leg and throw him.
 
−
<section end="107r.2"/>
 
−
 
 
−
<section begin="107r.3"/>
 
−
''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, displace his strike out of the guard and drive up with the hilt, and thrust at the throat or to the openings by the
 
−
<section end="107r.3"/>
 
−
 
 
−
<section begin="107v.1"/>
 
−
joints. Likewise, set the thrust off, and you do the same, and as soon as you have attacked him, strike your pommel under the armpit so you secure your advantage. Attacks are four: one in the face, [one] to the throat. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/> on the left armpit or under the right shoulder
 
−
<section end="107v.1"/>
 
−
 
 
−
<section begin="107v.2"/>
 
−
and note when you attack on your left, come with your left foot forward and place it under the right shoulder, then step forward with the right foot. Furthermore, when you have attacked you should always force<ref name="thringen">orig. ''thringen''; cf. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dringen ''dringen''] </ref> over yourself. If he is shorter than you, sink your hilt under yourself to the hips and drive<ref name="thringen"/> over yourself. If he moves to the sides<ref>orig. ''last Er dür die seitten''</ref>, thrust into the helmet. That’s where he’s most wounded. Whenever you attack ensure that you are placed fully in the ring<ref>orig. ''Ring''; alt. lists; alt. (chain)mail</ref>. When you attack right and drive right, can he not fully work<ref name="arbeiten"/> to counter. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, if you are attacked, thusly thrust up over his right arm inwards under his sword and push your pommel through underneath towards the ground. As soon as it comes free, thusly shoot your sword forwards under his right, and with your right foot behind his left, and grip with your left hand on his helmet and throw him. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, stab him in the glove on the frontmost<ref>orig. ''vergesezsten''</ref> hand, and lead him around or stab him under his left arm up over his sword. Push with the pommel over yourself and attack him. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, from the
 
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<section end="107v.2"/>
 
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<section begin="108r.1"/>
 
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wrestling<ref name="ringen"/>, remember which side he has attacked you. Grip his blade with your left hand, force it from you, immediately<ref name="inndes"/> twitch off<ref name="abzucken">see '''abzucken'''</ref> and pull in to you and catch him with the right hand, his right hand, and pull in to yourself and grab his body and lift over yourself. He will lift. Strike the foot<ref>orig. ''fies''</ref> and out and throw him from yourself. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, if he thrusts at you, thrust with him simultaneously in at your left side, and in the thrust catch his blade with yours and drive with the pommel under through both arms and strike over yourself so he must release. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, pay attention to which hand you can catch him with and jerk back to yourself, and with the other hand grip his elbow, and ''Him''<ref>unclear transcription; possibly ''nim'', ergo "take the weight"</ref> the weight, and with all steps until not too high, so that you have a full stance. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, if you have thrown someone  and he falls, fall down with him to your right and with your right knee between both his legs and with the left hand around his neck, if you have surely secured him, then drawyour dagger. If he grabs at the dagger, stab him in the hand and pull back with another, until you have better spotted your advantage. ''Ittem''<ref name="ittem"/>, another: take his right arm between the leg and lie down on top of him horizontally/diagonally<ref>orig. ''zwerchs''</ref> and hold your legs
 
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<section end="108r.1"/>
 
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<section begin="108v.1"/>
 
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almost together and stretch yourself. Grasp his left arm with with your left hand and hold it fast and work with the dagger<ref name="degen">orig. ''degen''</ref> that will follow hereafter.
 
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<section end="108v.1"/>
 
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<section begin="108v.2"/>
 
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'''How One Should Use the Three Aforementioned Weapons'''
 
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Note: in the first Approach go into the Oberhut and introduce yourself with whatever gestures you will as if you want to initiate<ref name="stehenn"/> in his face. Don’t do it, rather strike or hew from above to below to his knee buckles. Whether you hit or not thus push nimbly with the hands over yourself and strike him with the pickaxe to the head outside over his right arm, or strike him in the nearest joint<ref>orig. ''Gelenck''</ref> that you can. Pull nimbly around your head and let the right hand drive in front of the left hand and grasp then under your left in the blade and strike with a Mittelschlag from your right to his helmet, be it with the pickaxe or a hew, or with the pommel<ref>orig. ''klos''</ref>. If he grasps your bind, [do] again with your right hands and step back again so that you can recover again, and diligently watch out that he can’t give you a strike. Also, don’t let yourself be attacked, rather evade in a circle as much as you can bear.
 
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<section end="108v.2"/>
 
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'''[The following sections are still incomplete.]'''
 
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<section begin="109r.1" />
 
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'''The Other Device<ref name="stuck">orig. ''stuck''</ref>'''
 
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<section end="109r.1" />
 

Latest revision as of 15:50, 9 April 2023

Armoured Fencing

Further Development of the Translation

Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:

  • Check for consistency with the variants of greiffen, "grabbing"

Open Questions

There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:

  • greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?
  • 109r.1: "grip your both" - could that be "grip your bind"? It's possible that "beidt" was spoken/written instead of "bindt".
    • There is a similar occurrence on 106v.1, with "nim dein schwertt Inn die oberhut mit dem beidt nebenn deim haupt" - possibly meant to be "take your sword in the Oberhutt with your grip beside your head"?
    • The regular bindtt/binnt/binnd/etc. is also a dem word and is over varying spelling, which could lend credence to this theory. Experimentation would hopefully be fruitful.

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

Longsword

ENHG word English translation Notes
fieren/firen/fiert/firt to conduct/fire

Armoured Fencing

ENHG word English translation Notes
Reren ??? Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
brichen/brechen to break, to wrench(?) lit. "break", but could also mean "tear away" or "wrench" (https://fwb-online.de/lemma/brechen.h4.3vu?q=brechen&page=1#sense22)
Annbrich(en) to break on(?)
zeich/zeichen draw cf. zeichnen.
hawen to hew, to cut A strike with the blade.
schlag a strike A blunt strike.
schlagen to strike A blunt strike.
schlecht to strike cf. schlagen. Only appears in conditional sentences such as "schlecht Er...", implying a softening of the /g/ sound in the conjugation (modern schlägt), which is interesting.
streichen to strike A blunt strike. Seems to be the same as schlagen; only appears once as a verb.
streich a stroke cf. schlag.
achsell/ahsell shoulder
uchsen/vchsen/vhsen armpit
sampt together (with) cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
Hefft haft
haften to stick [in place]
Sebell sabre
Ittem likewise/further cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stossem/Stoßem to shove/push In the context of armoured fencing, it may mean "stab" or "jab".
triten/thritten/tretten/thretten step
blöß/blößenn openings lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts towards
dür you Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
fahren to drive cf. fahren
faren to drive cf. fahren
auffaren/far auf to drive up alt. rise
dringen/thringen/tringen to drive [forth] [with the point] See here; cf. modern drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
leger stance/fencing position https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
heben to lift cf. heben
Bindt the grip
Bündt the grip cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
bandt [the] bind
vmbschlecht to strike/cut around cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt short edge
gefes the grip/handle [of the sword] cf. Gefäß
kell throat cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr weapon lit. "defence"
drauen to threaten cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren to hit/to make contact
Zecken tacks cf. Zwecken
schlims diagonally/slanted
zuthritten/zutretten approach cf. "onset"
ansezen/ansetzen attacking / pinning / planting Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel throat cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel throat, see thrissel I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich upwards, over yourself/about yourself Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen/las/lasen to release cf. lässt
megest can/may cf. mögest
ersehen to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen to use, to need Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch hasty cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen to attack, to grapple cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff to grab / to catch cf. greiff
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen to grab / to catch cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
fas to grasp
gezogen drawn Past participle of zeichen/ziehen.
glieder/glider/glüder penis, or "small body part" cf. Glied, also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1

Strategy for Discerning Words

Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.

  • If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
  • If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
  • If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.

Searching for Words

I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:

  • Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
  • Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
  • Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
  • Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.

Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks

These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.

As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.

  • ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
    • This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
  • Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
  • c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
  • p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
    • To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
  • Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
  • spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
  • spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
  • kniehel, knichel, kniechell
  • schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
    • It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
  • v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
  • u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
  • ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
    • Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
  • ↑ Fechtkunst Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)
    • Retrieved from "https://wiktenauer.com/index.php?title=Talk:Joachim_Meyer/Jordan_Elliot_Finch_2023_MAF&oldid=141876"