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Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF
Contents
Open Questions
There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:
- schlagen vs. streichen - is there a distinction between these words according to Meyer? He uses them seemingly interchangeably, sometimes both within the same sentence.
Glossary
This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.
Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!
ENHG word | English translation | Notes |
---|---|---|
sampt | together (with)(?) | cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section. |
Hefft | haft | |
Sebell | sabre | |
Ittem | likewise/further | cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points |
stos/Stoß | shove/push | |
trit/thritt | step | |
blöß/blößenn | openings | lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]" |
werts | towards | |
dür | you | Most likely an alternate form of "dir" |
far | drive | cf. fahren |
leger | stance/fencing position | https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1 |
auffaren/far auf | drive up | alt. rise |
heb | lift | cf. heben |
Bindt | the grip(?) | |
Bündt | the grip(?) | cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings |
bandt | [the] bind | |
vmbschlecht | strike/cut around | cf. umschlagen |
halb schneidt | short edge | |
gefes | grip/handle [of the sword] | cf. Gefäß |
kell | throat(?) | cf. Kehle, Dutch keel |
Wehr | weapon | lit. "defence" |
drauen | threaten | cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search= |
rieren | hit/to make contact | |
Zecken | tacks | cf. Zwecken |
schlims | diagonally/slanted | |
Reren | ??? | Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that. |
dringen | drive forth | cf. drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich". |
zuthritten/zutretten | approach | cf. "onset" |
vhsen/vchsen/vechsen | armpit | cf. achsel. Potentially by achsel he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as vhsen specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though. |
ansezen/ansetzen | attacking / pinning / planting | Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?) |
thrissel | throat | cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel. |
drissel | throat, see thrissel | I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment. |
übersich | over yourself / about yourself | Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”) |
lest/lesen | to release | cf. lässt |
megest | to make(?) / to do(?) | cf. machst. This seems the most likely so far, although the etymological description of machen on Wiktionary doesn’t necessarily indicate this other than the PIE meg-. It may also be "may", but is written like this, possibly due to Meyer's accent. Cf. vnd schaw ob du im megest Annsetzenn vs. "and see if you may/can attack him" |
ersehen | to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage] | |
brauchen | to use, to need | Context dependent, especially in this older form |
goch | hasty | cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century) |
angreifen | attack, grapple | cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage. |
greüff | grab / catch | cf. greiff |
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen | grab / catch | cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand". |
Strategy for Discerning Words
Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.
- If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
- If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
- If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.
Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks
These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.
As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.
- ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
- This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
- Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
- c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
- p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
- To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
- Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
- spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
- spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
- kniehel, knichel, kniechell
- schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
- It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
- v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
- u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
- ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
- Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
- Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)