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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF"

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== Glossary ==
  
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This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.<br/>
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I '''thoroughly welcome''' any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.<br/>
 +
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.<br/>
 +
This is especially true for the '''(?)''' and '''???''' items in the glossary.
 +
 +
'''Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!'''
 +
 +
{| class="wikitable"
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|-
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! ENHG word !! English translation !! Notes
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|-
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| Hefft || haft ||
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|-
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| Sebell || sabre ||
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|-
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| Ittem || likewise/further || cf. ''desgleichen'' and ''ferner''; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
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|-
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| stos/Stoß || shove/push ||
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|-
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| trit/thritt || step ||
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|-
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| blöß/blößenn || openings || lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
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|-
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| werts  || towards ||
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|-
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| dür || you || Most likely an alternate form of "dir"
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|-
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| far || drive || cf. ''fahren''
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|-
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| leger || stance/fencing position || https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
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|-
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| auffaren/far auf|| drive up || alt. ''rise''
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|-
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| heb || lift || cf. ''heben''
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|-
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| Bindt || the grip'''(?)''' ||
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|-
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| bandt || [the] bind ||
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|-
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| vmbschlecht || strike/cut around || cf. ''umschlagen''
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|-
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| halb schneidt || short edge ||
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|-
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| gefes || grip/handle [of the sword] || cf. [https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gefäß ''Gefäß'']
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|-
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| kell || throat'''(?)''' || cf. ''Kehle'', Dutch ''keel''
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|-
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| Wehr || weapon || lit. "defence"
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|-
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| drauen || threaten || cf. ''drohen''; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
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|-
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| rieren || hit/to make contact ||
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|-
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| Zecken || tacks || cf. [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zwecke#German ''Zwecken'']
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|-
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| schlims || diagonally/slanted ||
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|-
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| Reren || '''???''' || Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
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|-
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| dringen || drive forth || cf. ''drängen'' and ''dringen'', in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
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|-
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| zuthritten/zutretten || approach || cf. "onset"
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|-
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| vhsen/vchsen/vechsen || armpit || cf. ''achsel''. Potentially by ''achsel'' he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as ''vhsen'' specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
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|-
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| ansezen/ansetzen || attacking / pinning / planting || Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead<ref name="forgeng">[https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fechtkunst_Glossary_(Jeffrey_Forgeng)]</ref>. Worth noting: Meyer uses ''angreiffen'' to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
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|-
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| thrissel || throat || cf. ''drissel''. Seems to have transformed into [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Drossel Drossel], which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly [https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=trissel drüʒʒel].
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|-
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| drissel || throat, see ''thrissel'' || I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
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|-
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| übersich || over yourself / about yourself || Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. ''undersich'' (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
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|-
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| lest/lesen || to release || cf. ''lässt''
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|-
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| megest || to make'''(?)''' / to do'''(?)''' || cf. ''machst''. This seems the most likely so far, although the etymological description of ''machen'' on Wiktionary doesn’t necessarily indicate this other than the PIE ''meg-''. It may also be "may", but is written like this, possibly due to Meyer's accent. Cf. ''vnd schaw ob du im megest Annsetzenn'' vs. "and see if you may/can attack him"
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|-
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| ersehen || to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage] ||
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|-
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| brauchen || to use, to need || Context dependent, especially in this older form
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|-
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| goch || hasty || cf. ''gach''; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
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|-
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| angreifen  || attack, grapple || cf. ''angreifen''. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
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|-
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| greüff || grab / catch || cf. ''greiff''
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|}

Revision as of 23:09, 25 February 2023

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

ENHG word English translation Notes
Hefft haft
Sebell sabre
Ittem likewise/further cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stos/Stoß shove/push
trit/thritt step
blöß/blößenn openings lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts towards
dür you Most likely an alternate form of "dir"
far drive cf. fahren
leger stance/fencing position https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
auffaren/far auf drive up alt. rise
heb lift cf. heben
Bindt the grip(?)
bandt [the] bind
vmbschlecht strike/cut around cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt short edge
gefes grip/handle [of the sword] cf. Gefäß
kell throat(?) cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr weapon lit. "defence"
drauen threaten cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren hit/to make contact
Zecken tacks cf. Zwecken
schlims diagonally/slanted
Reren ??? Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
dringen drive forth cf. drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
zuthritten/zutretten approach cf. "onset"
vhsen/vchsen/vechsen armpit cf. achsel. Potentially by achsel he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as vhsen specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
ansezen/ansetzen attacking / pinning / planting Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel throat cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel throat, see thrissel I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich over yourself / about yourself Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen to release cf. lässt
megest to make(?) / to do(?) cf. machst. This seems the most likely so far, although the etymological description of machen on Wiktionary doesn’t necessarily indicate this other than the PIE meg-. It may also be "may", but is written like this, possibly due to Meyer's accent. Cf. vnd schaw ob du im megest Annsetzenn vs. "and see if you may/can attack him"
ersehen to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen to use, to need Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch hasty cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen attack, grapple cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff grab / catch cf. greiff
  1. ↑ [1]
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