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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF"

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Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
 
Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:
 
* Consider changing "shove" as translated from ''stos'' to "thrust" if it seems appropriate in most, if not all, cases.
 
* Consider changing "shove" as translated from ''stos'' to "thrust" if it seems appropriate in most, if not all, cases.
 +
* Do another pass of the initial sections now that I have a stronger understanding of how Meyer speaks in this section of the text.
  
 
== Open Questions ==
 
== Open Questions ==

Revision as of 16:37, 6 April 2023

Further Development of the Translation

Here's a running list of improvements I think could be made:

  • Consider changing "shove" as translated from stos to "thrust" if it seems appropriate in most, if not all, cases.
  • Do another pass of the initial sections now that I have a stronger understanding of how Meyer speaks in this section of the text.

Open Questions

There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:

  • schlagen vs. streichen: is there a distinction between these words according to Meyer? He uses them seemingly interchangeably, sometimes both within the same sentence.
  • stossen vs. drucken vs. dringen vs. fahren: many words that, generally, mean "push". I feel that fahren is distinct, but I wonder at the potential differing connotations of the other words.
  • greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

ENHG word English translation Notes
Reren ??? Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
sampt together (with) cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
Hefft haft
Sebell sabre
Ittem likewise/further cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stos/Stoß shove/push In the context of armoured fencing it may mean "stab".
trit/thritt step
blöß/blößenn openings lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts towards
dür you Most likely an alternate form or misspelling of "dir"
far drive cf. fahren
leger stance/fencing position https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
auffaren/far auf drive up alt. rise
heb lift cf. heben
Bindt the grip(?)
Bündt the grip(?) cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
bandt [the] bind
vmbschlecht strike/cut around cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt short edge
gefes grip/handle [of the sword] cf. Gefäß
kell throat(?) cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr weapon lit. "defence"
drauen threaten cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren hit/to make contact
Zecken tacks cf. Zwecken
schlims diagonally/slanted
dringen drive forth cf. drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
zuthritten/zutretten approach cf. "onset"
vhsen/vchsen/vechsen armpit cf. achsel. Potentially by achsel he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as vhsen specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
ansezen/ansetzen attacking / pinning / planting Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead[1]. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel throat cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel throat, see thrissel I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich over yourself / about yourself Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen to release cf. lässt
megest can/may cf. mögest
ersehen to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen to use, to need Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch hasty cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen attack, grapple cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff grab / catch cf. greiff
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen grab / catch cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
fas grasp
gezogen drawn Past participle of ziehen.
glieder/glider/glüder penis, or "small body part" cf. Glied; also https://fwb-online.de/lemma/glied.s.2n?q=glider&page=1#sense1

Strategy for Discerning Words

Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.

  • If a vowel cluster is spelled with , it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
  • If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
  • If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.

Searching for Words

I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:

  • Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
  • Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
  • Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
  • Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.

Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks

These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.

As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.

  • ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
    • This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
  • Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
  • c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
  • p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
    • To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
  • Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
  • spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
  • spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
  • kniehel, knichel, kniechell
  • schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
    • It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
  • v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
  • u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
  • ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
    • Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)
  • Fechtkunst Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)