Talk:Joachim Meyer/Jordan Elliot Finch 2023 MAF

Open Questions

There are others scattered throughout this page, but here's some:

• schlagen vs. streichen: is there a distinction between these words according to Meyer? He uses them seemingly interchangeably, sometimes both within the same sentence.
• stossen vs. drucken vs. dringen vs. fahren: many words that, generally, mean "push". I feel that fahren is distinct, but I wonder at the potential differing connotations of the other words.
• greiffen vs. ergreiffen vs. begreiffen vs. fassen: fassen may be more like "catching", but I'm unsure on that. Do these words have different connotations?

Glossary

This is a glossary I have compiled while working on translating the 1561 Munich text from Joachim Meyer.
I thoroughly welcome any input from those with more knowledge than me, or examples or counterexamples to my translations.
I feel I have been quite thorough in my translations (including trying not to automatically assume that a word means the same as its modern German definition), but welcome all productive discussion on potential meanings I have may have missed.
This is especially true for the (?) and ??? items in the glossary.

Let's build a working ENHG fencing glossary together!

ENHG word	English translation	Notes
sampt	together (with)(?)	cf. samt. Appears twice in Joachim Meyer's armoured fencing section. Additionally appears at the beginning of the 1561 Munich text under the "Vonn den 4 hüten" section.
Hefft	haft
Sebell	sabre
Ittem	likewise/further	cf. desgleichen and ferner; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_(Partikel); also used to itemise a list of points
stos/Stoß	shove/push
trit/thritt	step
blöß/blößenn	openings	lit. "bare/naked/exposed [parts]"
werts	towards
dür	you	Most likely an alternate form of "dir"
far	drive	cf. fahren
leger	stance/fencing position	https://fwb-online.de/lemma/leger.s.2n?q=leger&page=1
auffaren/far auf	drive up	alt. rise
heb	lift	cf. heben
Bindt	the grip(?)
Bündt	the grip(?)	cf. Bund; could possibly mean a specific part of the grip e.g. the bindings
bandt	[the] bind
vmbschlecht	strike/cut around	cf. umschlagen
halb schneidt	short edge
gefes	grip/handle [of the sword]	cf. Gefäß
kell	throat(?)	cf. Kehle, Dutch keel
Wehr	weapon	lit. "defence"
drauen	threaten	cf. drohen; https://fwb-online.de/search?q=drauen&type=&search=
rieren	hit/to make contact
Zecken	tacks	cf. Zwecken
schlims	diagonally/slanted
Reren	???	Seems to be a noun. It could have been verbified from "fabric"/"standard", see sense 8: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reren#Etymology_1. Could also simply be "rear [ones]" or potentially "raised [ones]", but I can’t find a source for that.
dringen	drive forth	cf. drängen and dringen, in the sense "driving/forcing your way through a crowd". It’s usually used in the phrase "thring von dür" or "thring für dich".
zuthritten/zutretten	approach	cf. "onset"
vhsen/vchsen/vechsen	armpit	cf. achsel. Potentially by achsel he specifically means shoulder/armpit area, as vhsen specifically means armpit (at least in the armoured fighting section). It may be folly to assume there's that much consistency in this text, though.
ansezen/ansetzen	attacking / pinning / planting	Can mean attacking, but in the context of armoured fighting, it may mean "pinning" instead. Worth noting: Meyer uses angreiffen to refer to simply "attacking" someone in the armoured fighting section, potentially on purpose so as to avoid confusion (or am I being naïve?)
thrissel	throat	cf. drissel. Seems to have transformed into Drossel, which is an archaic form for "throat" or possibly drüʒʒel.
drissel	throat, see thrissel	I also found some evidence that this can be an old word for "thrice", but I can't find said evidence at the moment.
übersich	over yourself / about yourself	Potentially more accurate: upwards by/close to your person, cf. undersich (potentially “downwards close to your person”)
lest/lesen	to release	cf. lässt
megest	to make(?) / to do(?)	cf. machst. This seems the most likely so far, although the etymological description of machen on Wiktionary doesn’t necessarily indicate this other than the PIE meg-. It may also be "may", but is written like this, possibly due to Meyer's accent. Cf. vnd schaw ob du im megest Annsetzenn vs. "and see if you may/can attack him"
ersehen	to perceive / to spot [e.g. an opening; an advantage]
brauchen	to use, to need	Context dependent, especially in this older form
goch	hasty	cf. gach; https://fwb-online.de/lemma/gach.s.4adj?q=goch&page=1; https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Other_Masters_(14th_Century)
angreifen	attack, grapple	cf. angreifen. Seems to be context dependent; as far as I can discern, it really could mean either of these two in any given usage.
greüff	grab / catch	cf. greiff
Ergreüffen / Ergreiffen	grab / catch	cf. greiff. Possibly also "bind", as in "binding the sword blades together with your hand".
fas	grasp

Strategy for Discerning Words

Many words are written with varying spellings, which can make them difficult to parse - even for fluent and native speakers of modern German. Additionally, many unknown words are difficult to find translations for due to older spellings or variant spellings. Here is a work-in-progress list of steps to try in order to figure things out. This will be updated as and when I think of things to add - feel free to contribute to the list.

• If a vowel cluster is spelled with eü, it most often can also be spelled with ei. Example: greüff -> greiff.
• If a vowel is spelled with ü, it can sometimes be spelled with just i. Example: dür -> dir.
• If a word contains mpt, try replacing it with mt. Example sampt -> samt.

Searching for Words

I generally follow this process for researching words I'm unsure of:

• Use the above list to play around with the word and see if it still exists as a modern German word. Note that meanings and connotations change over time, though.
• Head to Jeffrey L. Forgeng's glossary and see if the word appears there.
• Head to Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch and see if the word appears there.
• Look over other historical texts that have translations, such as by searching for "<word> Wiktenauer". Placing the word in quotes forces its spelling and stops search engines from auto-correcting it.

Common Spelling/Transcription Quirks

These are some "quirks" that I encountered while translating this text. These may well be known already, but I thought it worth noting them down anyway.

As always, I thoroughly welcome any discussion.

• ü instead of i (weüse -> weise; seüttenn -> seüttenn)
  • This could be more evidence of speaking aloud to a scribe; his accent may have led another person to spell the /ei/ cluster as eü
• Inconsistent double letters (klingen/klingenn)
• c instead of k (klingen -> clingen)
• p instead of b (blöß -> plöß)
  • To me, this could be evidence that he was speaking aloud to different scribes that may have spelled things differently (especially for technical jargon, like blöß, which may not have had a well-known spelling)
• Words smashed together (ein ander -> einander; ein weder -> einweder; Abruck -> Ab ruck)
• spiez instead of spitz (occurs once)
• spitz, spis used seemingly interchangeably
• kniehel, knichel, kniechell
• schlecht instead of schlägt/schlagt (e.g. umbschlagen; description of Bleiben)
  • It’s possible that Meyer spoke with a soft g (which is present in modern-day German and Dutch), and a scribe mistook schlägt as schlecht. This would be even more possible if Meyer’s /a/ sound is closer to an /e/ sound.
• v instead of u (vmb, vnd, vndd, vnnden)
• u instead of v (zuuersthen -> zuversthen/zuverstehen)
• ch instead of r (dachin -> darin)
  • Meyer potentially had a hard-sounding guttural /r/ (or he occasionally accidentally went too hard with some words when talking)

Fechtkunst Glossary (Jeffrey Forgeng)