Talk:Zettel

"epitome" as translation of "zedel"

It seems I have introduced this to the wikipedia article in January 2012[1]. But I am sure this was not my idea. I am not sure who first translated "zedel" as "epitome", but I first took note of it around that date.

It is not a bad translation at all, but we need to make clear that this is just one suggestion how the term zedel may be translated in English. --Dieter Bachmann 07:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes, I believe the "epitome" translation is due to Christian Tobler's Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts (2010). --Dieter Bachmann 07:20, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Dr. Forgeng employed it in his translation of Meyer (2006) and Tobler used it in his translation of Kal (2006) and I believe also in his translation of Ringeck (2002). It's my understanding that "epitome" is an accepted translation of the MHG/ENHG Zettel among academics, though I could be wrong about that. Regardless, I use it in all of my translation work, including the articles on this site.

~ Michael Chidester ^(Contact) 14:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I may move this page back to Epitome next time I look at it. I realize that I haven't talked much about long-term goals of the wiki outside of my conversations with the other admins, largely due to the fact that the admins have been the only active editors, but one of our objectives is establishing a robust English-language lexicon for HEMA research and thereby facilitate discussion and understanding. (My long-term plans include the establishment of additional Wiktenauers in Spanish, French, and German, though that depends on how much interest we get from native speakers--only the Spanish community has volunteered much support as yet.) So it's important to me that whenever there's a valid English-language term for something, we use it primarily.

For example, when I start putting serious attention on the Technique pages (or another project head is appointed to do so), a Zornhaw will always be a "Zornhaw" (since it's a device unique to Liechtenauer), but both Oberhaw and Fendente (and other comparable terms like "quarter" and "hawk") will redirect to an article on descending cuts. This is not due to some misguided "pan-European" ideology, but rather because the most useful and informative discussion of a given technique is to one where similar actions from different traditions can be compared and their differences and similarities made apparent. I expect that this will be unpopular at first, but on a longer time scale, being able to perceive at a glance the relationship between scambiare di punte and Absetzen (as another example) should help to increase the level of understanding and awareness among different HEMA traditions, while still allowing focused research on a single tradition if desired.

Back to Zettel vs. Epitome, while knowing the term "Zettel" is important for any student of German traditions, it's not really a term that needs to be used in conversation (except when speaking German). :) Likewise, you'll notice that Fechtbücher are referred to as fencing manuals and so forth. So while moving this and other articles isn't high on my to-do list, it's a task that will need to be done sooner or later, as well as rewrites of various articles to rely primarily on English-language terms except when stating what the foreign-language terms are.

This policy isn't set in stone, and is obviously something that will be further developed as this conversation continues between the active editors, but it's where we stand at the moment.

~ Michael Chidester ^(Contact) 16:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)