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Difference between revisions of "Treatises/Manuscript purgatory"

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This is a weird one. It is in a good state of conservation, written in a beautifully clear hand and in a mostly not too obtuse Italian. The who thing was quite pricey to scan so I ordered the first 1/3 (which came to over 150 pages) to have a look and never followed up the next 2/3 as it is 99% irrelevant to the practical study of fencing. Instead it is literally stuffed with classical references but also observations about the natural world and sundry other digressions; there are no techniques and only scattered pieces of very general fencing advice.
 
This is a weird one. It is in a good state of conservation, written in a beautifully clear hand and in a mostly not too obtuse Italian. The who thing was quite pricey to scan so I ordered the first 1/3 (which came to over 150 pages) to have a look and never followed up the next 2/3 as it is 99% irrelevant to the practical study of fencing. Instead it is literally stuffed with classical references but also observations about the natural world and sundry other digressions; there are no techniques and only scattered pieces of very general fencing advice.
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| {{yes}}
 
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|
 
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| Late 1500s or early 1600s
 
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| Add. Ms. 23223
 
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|
 
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| British Library
 
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| This is listed by Castle, and is catalogued as 17th Century but the content itself seems more consistent with 16th century treatises. A black and white, easily readable, scan is inexpensive from the BL. It is handwritten in Italian, no illustrations, in two separate hands which are both fairly easy to read, although some of the pages are damaged and it is reasonable brief (the scan is 96 pages including blanks). Interestingly it uses the same guard nomenclature as Altoni with high, medium and low guards, and primarily discusses the single sword, sword and dagger, sword and cape and sword and rotella. The way it is organised is unusual, in that rather than relegating the rotella to a section of its own like most comparable treatises, it has a section on say the high guard, then explains how this applies to the single sword, sword and dagger, sword and cape and sword and rotella. It also very briefly mentions polearms, the spadone and two swords, which makes a nice round 10 Italian sources (alone) that includes two swords (Manciolino, Marozzo, Altoni, Agrippa, Di Grassi, Lovino, Lucino, Palladini, Docciolini, and this one). It is anonymous and it contains no overt contextual references (on an initial scan) to tie it down temporally or geographically. My gut feeling however is that it is Tuscan and late 16th century. In addition to guard nomenclature, it appears to have further commonalities with Altoni (for example it mentions the “zagaglia” as a pole weapon, which does not appear in any other known treatises except Altoni). The language appears quite “modern” and there are no glaring dialectal traits on an initial reading, but not inconsistent with a Tuscan/Central Italian origin…
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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| ''Recueil de figures nues''
 
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| 1600-20
 
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| MS 17
 
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|
 
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| [[Médiathèque de Montbéliard]]
 
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| https://www.ffamhe.fr/wiki/MS_17_M%C3%A9diath%C3%A8que_de_Montb%C3%A9liard
 
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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| ''Fechtbuch des einfachen Rapiers / Fechtbuch in Rapier und Dolchen''
 
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| 1611
 
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| Mss. germ. qu. 1190/1191
 
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| [[Hans Wilhelm Schöffer von Dietz]]
 
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| Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin
 
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| (Single rapier, dated 1611. Many ink drawings. Belonged to Erasmus von Starhemberg, who owned another well-known Fechtbuch.)
 
−
 
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Ms. germ. qu. 1190, Berlin, Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preußischer Kulturbesitz<br/>Mayster Hans Wilhelm: Fechtbuch des einfachen Rapiers (single rapier)<br/>318 folios · 1611
 
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(Another book by the same master, this one on rapier & dagger)
 
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Ms. germ. qu. 1191, Berlin, Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preußischer Kulturbesitz<br/>Mayster Hans Wilhelm: Fechtbuch in Rapier und Dolchen<br/>327 Blatt · 1611
 
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:~ Matt G.
 
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----
 
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* Archetype for ''[[Grůndtliche vñ eigentlichte Beschreibung der Fechtkunst (Hans Wilhelm Schöffer von Dietz)|Grůndtliche vñ eigentlichte Beschreibung der Fechtkunst]]''?
 
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* Archetype for earlier publication of same in two volumes, making the 1620 a compilation reprint?
 
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* Possibly the same as or related to [[Grůndtliche vñ eigentlichte Beschreibung der Fechtkunst (4º MS Math.2)|4º MS Math.2]]
 
  
 
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https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/il-ponte/catalogue-id-il-pon1-10007/lot-d6d76e96-c0e1-4ee7-bc1d-a75c00c0b32a
 
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/il-ponte/catalogue-id-il-pon1-10007/lot-d6d76e96-c0e1-4ee7-bc1d-a75c00c0b32a
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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|
 
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| late 1600s
 
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| M 1-3-3
 
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|
 
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| Biblioteca de la Fundación Lazaro Galdiano
 
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| While working on a forthcoming publication on Italian and Spanish fencing, the group led by Luca Cecchinato came upon a digitized copy of a rare manuscript held in Madrid in the Biblioteca de la Fundación Lazaro Galdiano. It dates from the end of the 17th century and includes several essays on previously published Destreza works as well as a commentary on the Nueva Ciencia of Pacheco de Narváez. It also contains almost all of the plates not published in the Nueva Ciencia, which have long been sought. This is a very important announcement for everyone interested in primary Destreza sources.
 
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Luca Cecchinato, Manuel Valle, Charles Blair
 
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http://bibliotecavirtualmadrid.org/bvmadrid_publicacion/i18n/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3504
 
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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|
 
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| late 1600s
 
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| 49-III-6(1)
 
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|
 
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| Biblioteca da Ajuda
 
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| Anonymous work contained in a little known manuscript of the Biblioteca da Ajuda. A vision of the Destreza in Portugal in the XVII century with elements from the Verdadera Destreza and from the ordinary or Vulgar. 64 feridas (techniques) explained with their counter-techniques. Some of them were previously unknown, like the parafusada or the wound of the Duke of Alba. With comments and glosses. Accessible language although basic knowledge of Destreza is necessary.
 
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----
 
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This seldom known work, which is kept at the Biblioteca da Ajuda as 49 -III- 6, is bound in a book together with the previously unpublished Manuscrito da Espada, also in our catalogue.
 
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This is a re-interpretation of Pacheco's posthumous work, Nueva Ciencia. Beyond completing it with missing information, such as the lost engravings not present in the published version of Pacheco's book, the author took an eminently practical approach, didactic in purpose, dividing the book in «Liçoes» (Lessons), each preceded with an illustrative engraving, introducing progressively new concepts, from theoretical geometric elements to steps and footwork, to techniques such as the atalho or the movement of conclusion. This approach makes this book one of the best options when looking for a whole, comprehensive Destreza textbook.
 
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|- valign="top" class="red"
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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|
 
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| 17th or 18th century
 
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| Add. Ms. 17533
 
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| H. A. V.
 
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| British Library
 
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| THREE treatises on the art of Fencing, as taught by Signor Salvator and Signor Moman, by H. A. V.; with illustrations in Indian ink. Paper, XVIIIth cent. Folio.
 
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(Egerton Castle mentions that the source above is in German, based on Salvator Fabris. He says it's 17th century, not 18th.)
 
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http://searcharchives.bl.uk/IAMS_VU2:IAMS032-002027779
 
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https://www.woodenswords.com/Proper_Description_of_Thrust_Fencing_with_the_Sing_p/book-pro01.htm
 
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| {{yes}}
 
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| Talhoffer
 
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| 1705-1758
 
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| MS Hz.014
 
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| [[Hans Talhoffer]]
 
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| Kunstsammlungen der Veste Coburg
 
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| http://www.hammaborg.de/en/transkriptionen/talhoffer_coburg/index.php
 
  
 
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|  
 
|  
 
| Language and state of existence unknown.
 
| Language and state of existence unknown.
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{no}}
 
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| ''Fior di Battaglia''
 
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| Early 15th century
 
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| Ms. 84
 
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| [[Fiore de'i Liberi]]
 
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| Biblioteca Estense
 
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| Last seen 1508
 
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{no}}
 
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| ''Fior di Battaglia''
 
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| Early 15th century
 
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| Ms. 110
 
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| [[Fiore de'i Liberi]]
 
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| Biblioteca Estense
 
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| Last seen 1508
 
  
 
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|  
 
|  
 
| Lost
 
| Lost
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|- valign="top"
 
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| {{no}}
 
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| ''Hans Lichtenauers bekannte Fechtkunst''
 
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| 1515
 
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| Ms. 2. Cart. Misc. S XVI
 
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| J. Schwerer
 
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| Formerly Ortenburg'sche Bibliothek zu Tambach
 
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| 1842 catalog: [https://books.google.com/books?id=OiiL7U176dgC&pg=PA366&lpg=PA366&dq=%22J.+Schwerer%22+1515&source=bl&ots=Oub38U7ap6&sig=LyHolS3eSjBQa9Bql51DTnSjcdU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiThtTxj7jSAhUm9YMKHWUGAm8Q6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=%22J.%20Schwerer%22%201515&f=false]
 
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Rainer Welle (1993): "An dieser Stelle hätte eigentlich eine bisher der Forschung nicht näher bekannt gewordene Handschrift(?) vorgestellt werden sollen. Es handelt sich hierbei um "Hans Lichtenauers bekannte Fechtkunst. Papier, fol. Hie hebt sich an die Zetl der Ritterlichen kunst des Fechtenns datum augspurgk, den zehenden tag des monatz februarij 1515. J. Schwerer." HILS' nicht weiter nachprüfbaren Angaben zufolge, soll auch in ihr Otts Lehre verzeichnet sein."
 
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* Footnote: "SCHMIDT, FRANZ: Die Handschriften der gräflich Ortenburg’schen Bibliothek zu Tambach in Oberfranken, in: Serapeum 3(1842)22, S.266. Ortsangabe, genaue Datierung und Namensanführung lassen aber auch darauf schließen, daß es sich hierbei um eine gedruckte Version handeln könnte.
 
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:"Auf meine erste Anfrage vom 19.01.90 an das Gräflich Ortenburg'sche Archiv erinnerte man sich dieser noch nicht inventarisierten Handschrift und meinte, sie noch zu besitzen. Mit Schreiben vom 24.08.90 teilte der Verwalter des Archivs, Herr Prof. Hausman (Graz) mir mit, "daß diese in der Bibliothek des Grafen zu Ortenburg in Tambach nicht mehr vorhanden ist und durch Verkauf in nicht mehr feststellbaren anderen Besitz gekommen ist.""
 
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J. Acutt: "The Hauptstaatsachive directed me to the Wildlife Park at Tambach (the old location for the library). Wildpark directed me to Staatsarchivs in Coburg (17th Oct). Coburg mentioned that “Prof. Hausmann, the specialist in all questions about the Ortenburg Archiv, died three years ago” (5th December 2012). The Coburg Archives directed me to the Universitätsbibliothek Regensburg, who told me that it was reported (by Lang) as lost. Location unknown."
 
  
 
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https://books.google.com/books?id=dolGNQEACAAJ
 
https://books.google.com/books?id=dolGNQEACAAJ
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| {{no}}
 
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| ''Kunst des Fechtens''
 
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| 1561
 
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|
 
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| [[Joachim Meyer]]
 
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|
 
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| Lost as of the mid 20th century.
 
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http://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/1561-joachim-meyer-dedicated-a-fencing-book-to-the-pfalzgrafen-of-pfalz-veldenz-2/
 
  
 
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Latest revision as of 21:02, 6 November 2023

Items in red have not yet been verified with the holding library.

Purgatory

Manuscript Purgatory is for works that we have not yet indexed for one reason or another.

M Title Year Signature Author Location Notes
No The Book of Feats of Arms and Chivalry before 1430 Lots Christine de Pisan BnF, etc. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=epXQh7B1w20C

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_de_Pizan

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8448959c

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6000099t

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84489727

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8448955q

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9058872d

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8449705f

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8451466w

En: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.rbc/rosenwald.0570

De: http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB000017D900000000

No De Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi ca. 1480s Philippo di Vadi Vatican Library Possible second copy of De Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi (MS Vitt.Em.1324)
Yes Il Disegno Del signor Cesare Pagano, Cavaliere Nopoletano, su'l vero Teatro di Marte, Per la Teorica della Schrimia, All' Altezza, di Don Ferdinando, de Medeci, Gran Duca di Toscana 1592 Cesare Pagani Biblioteca Nazionale di Firenze (XIX, 194, Magliabecchiana)

This is mentioned by Gelli. It is dated 1592, and Cesare declares himself a relative (possibly a nephew) of Marcantoio Pagano, who published his treatise in 1553.

This is a weird one. It is in a good state of conservation, written in a beautifully clear hand and in a mostly not too obtuse Italian. The who thing was quite pricey to scan so I ordered the first 1/3 (which came to over 150 pages) to have a look and never followed up the next 2/3 as it is 99% irrelevant to the practical study of fencing. Instead it is literally stuffed with classical references but also observations about the natural world and sundry other digressions; there are no techniques and only scattered pieces of very general fencing advice.

Yes Libro de las grandezas de la espada(?) 1616 Ms Aa298 Palais Liechtenstein Archiv http://fechtgeschichte.blogspot.com/2017/04/transkription-der-handschrift-aa-298.html
Yes Nueva ciencia y filosofía de la destreza de las armas 1625 Mss/9038 Luis Pacheco de Narváez Biblioteca Nacional de Espana Manuscript of Nueva Ciencia, which wasn't published until 1672.

http://bdh.bne.es/bnesearch/detalle/bdh0000088867

No Compendio y Philosophia y Dztreza de las Armas 1625 Octavio Ferrara Traced by Archibald Corble in the early 20th century to create the MS R4-B274.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/il-ponte/catalogue-id-il-pon1-10007/lot-d6d76e96-c0e1-4ee7-bc1d-a75c00c0b32a

No Abregé de l'exercice des armes[. Necéssaire à la jeunesse de savoir, pour pouvoir se deffendre avec son espée] 1767 MS E.1939.65.459 G. Belfin RL Scott

Luxembourg (place of manufacture)

Paper, vellum
Manuscript entitled, 'Abrege De L'Exercice Des Armes', by G Belfin.
Published Luxembourg, 1767.
Subject classification: Fencing - French, 18th century. Bookplate with coat of arms
No Traite Des Armes 1797 MS E.1939.65.489 Theophile-Malo Corret de La Tour D'Auvergne RL Scott Manuscript by author, 'Traite Des Armes', by Theophile-Malo Corret De La Tour D'Auvergne.
Published 1797.
Subject classification: Fencing - French, 18th century NB letter inside giving history of this MS, Rouen, 1900 Also typed paragraph about the book
No 18th century Ms. Dresd. 469 Dominique Quenin, Maitre d'Armes de S.M.I. SLUB 84 figures of fencers. Watercolor illustrations. 18th century, quarto, 48 folios. (Probably smallsword, but impossible to tell.)
No 18th century Ms. Dresd. 491 SLUB Jeux d'Epee en figures. ("Game of the Sword, Illustrated.") Painted illustrations. 18th century, 25 folios.

Morgue

The Manuscript Morgue is for manuscripts that seem to have existed at one time, but for which we currently have no solid information or leads.

M Title Year Signature Author Location Notes
No Die Art und Weise, anzugreifen und zu verteidigen (?) ca. 1295 Francesco Giacomo Guglielmo and Filippo Del Serpente Language and state of existence unknown.
No 1434 Filippo di Bartolomeo Dardi Lost
No Opera de Scherma 1532 Guido Antonio di Luca Lost
No “M. Pauls Liechtenawer von Venedig Fechtbuech. Anno 1548 beschriben Worden” 1548 Stat III, Nr. 25 (24) J. Acutt: Die Gründung der Münchener Hofbibliothek durch Albrecht V. and Johann Jakob Fugger (Vol. 28, Issue. 3, 1918, p.418); Prommers Katalog (p. 132). Location unknown


No Rast Fechtbuch ca. 1549 Antonius Rast Purchased at auction by Paulus Hector Mair, used to create the Reichstadt Nr. 82 in 1553.
No 1556 Johannes Bierchenauwer (?) 19th century facsimile possibly exists
  • Bierchenauwer 1.jpg
  • Bierchenauwer 2.jpg
No 1557 Johannes Liechtenauer et al. Stadtarchiv Biel In 1968, there was an exhibition at the Schweizerische Turn- und Sportmuseum in Basel on fencing in art. It included a manuscript from 1557 described as containing the teachings of Liechtenauer, which was contributed by the Stadtarchiv Biel. This manuscript is not listed in any of the fencing manual catalogs, and the description given in the article matches no manuscript that we're aware of.

http://www.zeit.de/1968/50/das-fechten-in-der-kunst

When Jens Kleinau pointed this article out, Jurg Gassman and I (but more him) began making inquiries; after several weeks and speaking to every institution that might possibly have information about this (and tracking down one of about ten remaining copies of the exhibition publication), we've found nothing but dead ends.

https://books.google.com/books?id=dolGNQEACAAJ

No Cabinet d'escrime de l'espee et poingnardt 1585 Captain Peloquin Source for MS KB.73.J.39
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