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Difference between revisions of "Anonymous 15th Century Poem"

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{{Infobox medieval text
 
{{Infobox medieval text
 
<!----------Name---------->
 
<!----------Name---------->
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| name                 = Fechtlere
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| name                   = [[name::Anonymous 15th century poem]]
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| alternative title(s) = Anonymous 15th century poem
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| alternative title(s)   =  
 
<!----------Image---------->
 
<!----------Image---------->
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| image                 =  
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| image                 =  
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| width                 =  
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| width                 =  
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| caption               =  
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| caption               =  
 
<!----------Information---------->
 
<!----------Information---------->
−
| full title           =  
+
| full title             =  
−
| also known as         =  
+
| also known as         =  
−
| author(s)             = Unknown
+
| author(s)             = Unknown
−
| ascribed to           = [[Martin Syber]]<br>[[Hans Talhoffer]]
+
| ascribed to           = {{plainlist
−
| compiled by           =  
+
| [[author::Martin Syber]]
−
| illustrated by       =  
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| [[author::Hans Talhoffer]]
−
| patron               =  
+
}}
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| dedicated to         =  
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| compiled by           =  
−
| audience             =  
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| illustrated by         =  
−
| language             = [[Early New High German]]
+
| patron                 =  
−
| date                 = mid 1400s (?)
+
| dedicated to           =  
−
| date of issue         =   
+
| audience               =  
−
| provenance           =  
+
| language               = [[language::Early New High German]]
−
| state of existence   =  
+
| date                   = mid [[year::1400s]] (?)
−
| authenticity         =  
+
| date of issue         =   
−
| series               =  
+
| provenance             =  
−
| archetype(s)         = Hypothetical
+
| state of existence     =  
−
| manuscript(s)         = [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|MS Thott.290.2º]] (1459)<br>[[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|MS M.I.29]] (1491)
+
| authenticity           =  
−
| MS class 1            =
+
| series                 =  
−
| MS class 2            =
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| archetype(s)           = Hypothetical
−
| MS class 3            =
+
| manuscript(s)         = {{plainlist
−
| MS class 4            =
+
| [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|MS Thott.290.2º]] (1459)
−
| MS class 5            =
+
| [[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|MS M.I.29]] (1491)
−
| MS class 6            =
+
}}
−
| MS class 7            =
 
 
| principal manuscript(s)=  
 
| principal manuscript(s)=  
−
| first printed edition = Hull, 2008
+
| first printed edition = Hull, 2008
 
| wiktenauer compilation by= [[Michael Chidester]]
 
| wiktenauer compilation by= [[Michael Chidester]]
 
<!----------Form and content---------->
 
<!----------Form and content---------->
−
| verse form           =  
+
| verse form             =  
−
| length               =  
+
| length                 =  
−
| illustration(s)       =  
+
| illustration(s)       =  
−
| genre                 = [[Fencing manual]]
+
| genre                 = [[Fencing manual]]
−
| subject               =  
+
| subject               =  
−
| setting               =  
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| setting               =  
−
| period covered       =  
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| period covered         =  
−
| personages           =  
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| personages             =  
−
| personages (long list)=  
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| personages (long list) =  
−
| sources               =  
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| sources               =  
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| below                = {{German translation|Anonymous 15th Century Poem/German}}
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| translations          = {{plainlist
 +
| {{German translation|http://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/hans-talhoffers-fencing-poem-transcription-and-translation-from-thott-290-2%C2%B0/|1}}
 +
| {{German translation|http://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/transcription-and-translation-of-the-verses-in-the-fechtbuch-mi29-on-page-3r/|1}}
 +
}}
 +
| below                  =
 
}}
 
}}
−
This '''anonymous poem''', titled only ''Fechtlere'' ("Fencing Lore"), appears in fragmentary form in both [[Hans Talhoffer]]'s personal fencing manual of 1459<ref>[[Hans Talhoffer|Talhoffer, Hans]]. Untitled [manuscript]. [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|MS Thott.290.2º]]. Copenhagen, Denmark: [[Det Kongelige Bibliotek]], 1459.</ref> and [[Hans von Speyer]]'s 1491 anthology.<ref>[[Johannes Liechtenauer|Liechtenauer, Johannes]], et al. Untitled [manuscript]. [[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|MS M.I.29]]. Comp. [[Hans von Speyer]]. Salzburg, Austria: [[Universitätsbibliothek Salzburg]], 1491.</ref> It shares concepts and terminology with the writings of [[Martin Syber]] and follows his ''New Zettel'' ("New Epitome") in Speyer's work,<ref name="Hull">[[Jeffrey Hull|Hull, Jeffrey]]. [http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mertin_Siber/MS-Web.htm "Mertin Siber’s Longsword Fight-Lore of 1491 AD: a thesis on the ''Fechtlehre'' from Handschrift M I 29 (''Codex Speyer'') at the University of Salzburg in Austria"]. The [[Association for Renaissance Martial Arts]], 2005. Retrieved 30 November 2010.</ref> but is absent from other presentations of his treatise. Its presence in Talhoffer's writings over thirty years earlier would also suggest that Syber is not the original author (or potentially that his career was much earlier than currently thought).
+
This '''anonymous poem''' appears in fragmentary form in two [[century::15th century]] manuscripts: [[Hans Talhoffer]]'s personal manuscript of 1459<ref>[[Hans Talhoffer|Talhoffer, Hans]]. Untitled [manuscript]. [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|MS Thott.290.2º]]. Copenhagen, Denmark: [[Det Kongelige Bibliotek]], 1459.</ref> and [[Hans von Speyer]]'s 1491 compilation.<ref>[[Johannes Liechtenauer|Liechtenauer, Johannes]], et al. Untitled [manuscript]. [[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|MS M.I.29]]. Comp. [[Hans von Speyer]]. Salzburg, Austria: [[Universitätsbibliothek Salzburg]], 1491.</ref> It shares concepts and terminology with the writings of [[Martin Syber]] and follows his ''New Zettel'' ("New Record") in Speyer's work,<ref name="Hull">[[Jeffrey Hull|Hull, Jeffrey]]. [http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mertin_Siber/MS-Web.htm "Mertin Siber’s Longsword Fight-Lore of 1491 AD: a thesis on the ''Fechtlehre'' from Handschrift M I 29 (''Codex Speyer'') at the University of Salzburg in Austria"]. The [[Association for Renaissance Martial Arts]], 2005. Retrieved 30 November 2010.</ref> but is absent from other presentations of his work. Its presence in Talhoffer's writings over thirty years earlier would also suggest that Syber is not the original author (or potentially that his career was much earlier than currently thought).
−
__TOC__
+
 
 +
It is worth mentioning that the justification for considering the two poems to be parts of the same greater work is not as strong as we might wish. Out of 30 lines in the Copenhagen version and 27 in the Salzburg, only ten are common to both poems. This is a much smaller degree of overlap than we generally see in different renditions of the same work, though it is still substantial enough to reasonably conclude that the two are related in some way.
 +
 
 
== Treatise ==
 
== Treatise ==
  
 
The couplet in bold text appears out of sequence between the two versions. Its proper location cannot be determined from available information.
 
The couplet in bold text appears out of sequence between the two versions. Its proper location cannot be determined from available information.
  
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{{hidden begin
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{{master begin
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  | title     = <span style="font-size:130%;">Poem</span>
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  | title = Poem
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  | titlestyle= background:#f2f2f2; border:1px solid #aaaaaa; padding:10px; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; width:60%;
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  | width = 90em
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| bodystyle = display:block; width:87em;
 
 
}}
 
}}
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{| class="wikitable floated master"
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{| class="master"
  
 
|-  
 
|-  
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! English Translation
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! <p>{{rating|B}}<br/>by [[Christian Trosclair]]</p>
−
by [[Hans Talhoffer (Blogger)|Anonymous]]
+
! <p>[[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|Copenhagen Version]] (1459){{edit index|Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)}}<br/>Transcribed by [[Dieter Bachmann]]</p>
−
! [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|Copenhagen Version]] (1459)
+
! <p>[[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|Salzburg Version]] (1491){{edit index|Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)}}<br/>Transcribed by [[Dierk Hagedorn]]</p>
−
by [[Hans Talhoffer (Blogger)|Anonymous]]
 
−
! [[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|Salzburg Version]] (1491)
 
−
by [[Dierk Hagedorn]]
 
  
 
|-  
 
|-  
−
| {{red|b=1|Fencing Lore}}
+
| class="noline" |  
−
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"
+
{| class="zettel"
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|- valign="top"
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|-  
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| style="width:3em;" | <poem><small>[1]</small>
+
| <small>1</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>5</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>10</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>15</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>20</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>25</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>30</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>35</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>40</small><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><small>45</small>
−
 
+
| {{red|Descending cut is for thrust<br/>Rising cut breaks simply<br/>Lateral cut in the wide<ref>open space</ref><br/>Now ponder what this means<br/>In the switch cut, seek the gauche, <br/>Snipe for a displacement<br/>Plunge cut, therein you rotate<br/>If you wish to find the face uncovered<br/>Then from the part cut,<br/>Strike down their short edge<br/>Invert the plunge cut when down below<br/>Therein seek and learn<br/>In the Iron-point,<ref>usually ‘pfort’: port</ref> take watch.<br/>Rise up with your point.<br/>You deliver one more time into the unicorn<br/>'''''Your roses in the little wheel.'''''<br/>'''''Suddenly retract the hits to give good opportunities'''''<br/>Shield cut clashes together<br/>The wing accosts the ears}}<br/>Wrath-point, the chest to pierce<br/>Shooting over to both sides<br/>{{red|The waker will stay<br/>Driving strokes will go}}<br/>'''''Into the roses in the little wheel'''''<br/>'''''Suddenly retract the hits to give good opportunities'''''<br/>Crooked-hew to the mouth<ref>maw</ref><br/>If you have intwined him, do not rest<br/>In the war, so you apply grips<br/>Ox, plow: therein you do not soften<br/>Play<ref>Do not be serious, as in “jocamen, schimf oder scherz, vergnügen, spiel”</ref> with the carving<ref>in weiterer freierer anwendung. a) durch zerren, ziehen in schnelle bewegung versetzen.</ref> point<br/>In the barrier-point<ref>also trap, snare</ref> have a heart<br/>Avert<ref>Turn away, twist, steal away</ref> in the iron-gate.<br/>Perform a failing [upon] a buffalo, if you are agile<br/>{{red|Approaching first, [then] pursuing is the snare<br/>Bouncing, overrunning and the slice<br/>That is a general teaching<br/>Orient yourself thereupon<ref>lit. turn</ref><br/>This enables you to know,<br/>What this art claims to prize.}}<br/>If you wish to enjoy the Art,<br/>Then learn the doubled hews<br/>Whoever follows<ref>chases</ref> straight<ref>also simple</ref> hews,<br/>They permit their art little rejoicing<br/>Also [there] are the four guards<br/>That you shall always remember<br/>Do not fall strongly therein<br/>Lest<ref>lit. ‘or’</ref> he clash loudly, sounding over it.<br/>Whenever one wishes to bind-upon<br/>Then wind the short edge into forwards.
−
 
+
|}
−
 
+
| class="noline" |
−
<small>[5]</small>
+
<br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/>{{section|Page:MS Thott.290.2º 001r.jpg|1|lbl=1r}}
−
 
+
| class="noline" | {{section|Page:MS M.I.29 003r.jpg|1|lbl=3r}}
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[10]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[15]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[20]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[25]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[30]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
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−
<small>[35]</small>
 
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−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[40]</small>
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
 
 
−
<small>[45]</small></poem>
 
−
| <poem>Strike from above is for the thrust
 
−
Strike from below [plainly] breaks
 
−
Strike from the middle in the wideness
 
−
Now look, what that implies
 
−
In the Changing Strike search the Mouth
 
−
Look out for the displacement
 
−
Overthrow Strike in which you wind
 
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Do you want to find the face unprotected (bare)
 
−
So from the Parting Strike
 
−
strike with the short edge now
 
−
In the lower Overthrow Strike reverse
 
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Into itself and learn
 
−
In the Iron Gate perceive
 
−
With the point rise up
 
−
bring it sometimes to the Unicorn
 
−
'''''The roses in the [small] wheel'''''
 
−
'''''Twitch the hits [or contacts] gives good sense'''''
 
−
Shield Strike scores with it
 
−
Wing Strike is poison to the ears
 
−
Wrath Point drilling to the breast
 
−
To both sides shooting over
 
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Waking Strike wants to stay
 
−
Chasing, Sweeping will go
 
−
'''''The roses in the [small] wheel'''''
 
−
'''''Twitch the hits gives good sense'''''
 
−
Crook Strike towards the mouth
 
−
In the Braiding-In do not rest
 
−
In the War you may grab
 
−
Ox, Plough, in them yield
 
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With the Tearing Point / Riding Point be folly
 
−
In the Barrier Point have a heart
 
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In the Iron Gate rotate
 
−
A buffalo you chop if you are agile
 
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Earlier coming, Thereafter Riding is custom
 
−
Schnellen, Running over and the cuts
 
−
That is the fundamental lore
 
−
To this you turn
 
−
That is done by the wise
 
−
Who praise announcing the art
 
−
If you want to be pleased with the art
 
−
So learn the Doubled Strikes
 
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Wo follows simple strikes
 
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Will not be happy in the art
 
−
And there are four guards
 
−
Which you should keep in mind
 
−
Do not fall in them too strong
 
−
Or he will bang loudly over them
 
−
On what one wants to bind on you
 
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So wind the short edge in front</poem>
 
 
|}
 
|}
−
| <br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/>
+
{{master end}}
−
<poem>'''[1r]''' Zorn ort Der brust zu bort
 
−
zu baiden siten vber schiessen
 
−
Wecker wil stan
 
−
tr[e]ib[e]n str{e}ichen wil gan
 
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'''''In Der rosen Im rädlin'''''
 
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'''''zuck Die treffen gi[b]t gu[o]te sinn'''''
 
−
Krump how dem mu[e]l zu
 
−
Im eyn flechten hab nit ru[o]
 
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Im krieg so machstu griffen
 
−
ochß pflug Darinn du nit wyche[n]
 
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Mit dem Reiß ort schertz
 
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Im schra[n]ck ort hab ain hertz
 
−
Im ysen [p]ort v[er]wend
 
−
ain biffler tu[e] fälen biß[t] behend
 
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E komen nach reissen ist d[er] sitt
 
−
Schnellen vber louffen und den schnit
 
−
Daz ist ain gemaine lere
 
−
Daran Dich kere
 
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Daz tun[<del>d</del>] die wysen
 
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Die kunst kunden brysen
 
−
Wiltu Dich kunst fräwen
 
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So lern Die toplirten höwen
 
−
wer nach gaut slechten höwen
 
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Der mag sich kunst wenig fröwen
 
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Auch so sind vier leger
 
−
Die soltu mercken eben
 
−
tu[e] Dar In nit starck vallen
 
−
od[er] er laut darüber schallen
 
−
wa[s] ma[n] [<del>Dir</del>] anbind[en] will [Dir]
 
−
So wind die kurtz schnid für</poem>
 
−
| '''[3r] {{red|Fechtlere}}'''
 
−
<poem style="color:#A40000">Ober haülb ist für stich
 
−
Vnter haulb schlecht bricht
 
−
Mittel haulb in die weÿtte
 
−
Nü lüg was dz bedüte
 
−
Im wechsell haülb süch die geüche
 
−
Noch der versatzüng spee
 
−
Stürtz haülb dar in dü winde~
 
−
Wiltü Im dz antlütz ploß finden
 
−
So aüß dem scheittler
 
−
Schlag die kurtz schnid dar
 
−
Im vnter stürtz haülb verkere
 
−
Dar In sich vnd lere
 
−
Im ÿssen ort nÿm war
 
−
Mit dem ort vff far
 
−
Bringst auch moll Ins einhorn dar
 
−
'''''Din rosen Im redlin'''''
 
−
'''''Zück die treffen gen gute~ sin'''''
 
−
Schilt haulb mit trifft
 
−
Flÿgell oren gift
 
  
 +
{{master begin
 +
| title = Copyright and License Summary
 +
| width = 100%
 +
}}
 +
For further information, including transcription and translation notes, see the [[Talk:{{PAGENAME}}|discussion page]].
  
−
Wecker will ston
+
<section begin="sourcebox"/>{{sourcebox header}}
−
Triben strichen wil gañ
+
{{sourcebox
−
 
+
| work        = Translation
−
 
+
| authors    = [[translator::Christian Trosclair]]
−
 
+
| source link =
−
 
+
| source title= Wiktenauer
−
 
+
| license    = noncommercial
−
 
+
}}
−
 
+
{{sourcebox
−
 
+
| work        = [[Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)|Copenhagen Version]]
−
 
+
| authors    = [[Dieter Bachmann]]
−
 
+
| source link =
−
E komen noch reissen ist der sytt
+
| source title= [[Index:Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º)]]
−
Schnellen vberlouff vnd die schnidtt
+
| license    = public domain 0
−
Daß ist ein gemeÿne lere
+
}}
−
Dar an dich kere
+
{{sourcebox
−
Daß thüntt wÿssen
+
| work        = [[Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)|Salzburg Version]]
−
Dÿ künst kündent prÿssen</poem>
+
| authors    = [[Dierk Hagedorn]]
−
 
+
| source link =
−
|}
+
| source title= [[Index:Codex Speyer (MS M.I.29)]]
−
{{hidden end}}
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| license    = copyrighted
 +
}}
 +
{{sourcebox footer}}<section end="sourcebox"/>
 +
{{master end}}
  
 
== Additional Resources ==
 
== Additional Resources ==
  
−
* [[Jeffrey Hull|Hull, Jeffrey]]. "The Longsword Fight Lore of Mertin Siber." ''Masters of Medieval and Renaissance Martial Arts''. Ed. Jeffrey Hull. Boulder, CO: [[Paladin Press]], 2008. ISBN 978-1-58160-668-3
+
{{bibliography}}
  
 
== References ==
 
== References ==
  
−
{{reflist}}
+
{{reflist|2}}
 +
__FORCETOC__
 +
{{Liechtenauer tradition}}
  
−
[[Category:Research/Background Information]]
+
[[Category:Orphan Treatise]]
  
 
[[Category:Orphan]]
 
[[Category:Orphan]]
 +
 +
[[Category:Research/Background Information]]
  
 
[[Category:German Translation]]
 
[[Category:German Translation]]
  
 
[[Category:Longsword]]
 
[[Category:Longsword]]
 +
 +
[[Category:New format]]

Latest revision as of 03:35, 20 October 2023

Anonymous 15th century poem
Author(s) Unknown
Ascribed to
Date mid 1400s (?)
Genre Fencing manual
Language Early New High German
Archetype(s) Hypothetical
Manuscript(s)
First Printed
English Edition 		Hull, 2008
Concordance by Michael Chidester
Translations

This anonymous poem appears in fragmentary form in two 15th century manuscripts: Hans Talhoffer's personal manuscript of 1459[1] and Hans von Speyer's 1491 compilation.[2] It shares concepts and terminology with the writings of Martin Syber and follows his New Zettel ("New Record") in Speyer's work,[3] but is absent from other presentations of his work. Its presence in Talhoffer's writings over thirty years earlier would also suggest that Syber is not the original author (or potentially that his career was much earlier than currently thought).

It is worth mentioning that the justification for considering the two poems to be parts of the same greater work is not as strong as we might wish. Out of 30 lines in the Copenhagen version and 27 in the Salzburg, only ten are common to both poems. This is a much smaller degree of overlap than we generally see in different renditions of the same work, though it is still substantial enough to reasonably conclude that the two are related in some way.

Treatise

The couplet in bold text appears out of sequence between the two versions. Its proper location cannot be determined from available information.

Additional Resources

The following is a list of publications containing scans, transcriptions, and translations relevant to this article, as well as published peer-reviewed research.

  • Hull, Jeffrey (2008). "The Longsword Fight Lore of Mertin Siber." Masters of Medieval and Renaissance Martial Arts: 223-238. Ed. by John Clements. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press. ISBN 978-1-58160-668-3.

References

  1. ↑ Talhoffer, Hans. Untitled [manuscript]. MS Thott.290.2º. Copenhagen, Denmark: Det Kongelige Bibliotek, 1459.
  2. ↑ Liechtenauer, Johannes, et al. Untitled [manuscript]. MS M.I.29. Comp. Hans von Speyer. Salzburg, Austria: Universitätsbibliothek Salzburg, 1491.
  3. ↑ Hull, Jeffrey. "Mertin Siber’s Longsword Fight-Lore of 1491 AD: a thesis on the Fechtlehre from Handschrift M I 29 (Codex Speyer) at the University of Salzburg in Austria". The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts, 2005. Retrieved 30 November 2010.
  4. ↑ open space
  5. ↑ usually ‘pfort’: port
  6. ↑ maw
  7. ↑ Do not be serious, as in “jocamen, schimf oder scherz, vergnügen, spiel”
  8. ↑ in weiterer freierer anwendung. a) durch zerren, ziehen in schnelle bewegung versetzen.
  9. ↑ also trap, snare
  10. ↑ Turn away, twist, steal away
  11. ↑ lit. turn
  12. ↑ chases
  13. ↑ also simple
  14. ↑ lit. ‘or’
Early Germanic Traditions
Common Fencing Johannes Liechtenauer reversed.jpg
Wrestling
Liechtenauer
Tradition
Beringer Verse
Augsburg Tradition
Other Works
Fabris Tradition
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